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Thursday, October 18, 2007

IRA styled war planned (the target was NZ)


Alt Tv/Fleet FM Breakfast News Comment
IRA styled war planned (the target was NZ)
Tame Iti was preparing to declare an IRA-style war on New Zealand in a bid to establish his long-standing dream of an independent Tuhoe nation, according to police documents. A source close to The Dominion Post said the documents disclosed by police to legal parties for the accused showed police had been monitoring Iti's movements for 18 months, videoing and photographing his Urewera commando training camps and intercepting text messages sent by Iti to his co-conspirators. Finally the allegations are starting to surface, and I’m guessing most NZers will find this sort of thing horrifying, but – and here’s the but – if you followed me around for 18 months I’m sure you would hear me say some amazingly stupid stuff as well, that doesn’t mean I should be arrested under terrorism laws, so far the only evidence I've seen of a paramilitary squad running around the Ureweras with guns terrorising people are the police. AND they set up road blocks and photographed and searched people which is far more than even the "terrorists" would do. Most commentators are saying that there are two options, either the police have over reacted in a way that will damage their credibility for ever or we have a domestic terror group in NZ – neither one are palatable. And what about Maori/Pakeha relations? The Ruatoki community being totally besieged by armed Crown forces and what that says to those people vis a vis the Land Wars - the fake "sensitivity" of the police when they bring in Maori liaison the day after it happened and the general total over-kill to something that the police commissioner says was not an immediate threat. Yesterday Iti was denied bail and some are suggesting the Police reaction will only anger moderates and start an even more intense radicalization of people. Great.

39 Comments:

At 18/10/07 7:41 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"but – and here’s the but – if you followed me around for 18 months I’m sure you would hear me say some amazingly stupid stuff as well..."

But in the last eighteen months you haven't called for a violent revolution, nor have you been hoarding a mini arsenal of weaponry.

But if you had, I am sure you would be cooling your heels in remand too.

 
At 18/10/07 7:50 am, Blogger Mana said...

With such stories of IRA like tactics and supposing police documents: charges must be a heart beat away?

 
At 18/10/07 7:59 am, Blogger Mana said...

I will agree with you on this bomber; one thing is certain the police and the attorney general will have to make the terrorism charges stick or this will look very bad for them ...

NZ govt is now trying to back out of it, with the "the nz govt does not get involved speech" will be interesting to see what happens.

 
At 18/10/07 10:49 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bomber Where's your head at? Hard-working non-violent activists are locked up and implicitly accused of terrorism. Communities are invaded by armed cops smashing in doors and windows and terrorizing elders, men, women and children. And your response is to defend the cops while even Ross Meurant (off all people) can see they are out of line? I'm staggered bro? Is there some subtle strategy I'm not grasping? I hope so because you just blew what little credibility you had left with a lot of people who post on Indymedia. Korero mai Danyl Strype

 
At 18/10/07 11:04 am, Blogger Bomber said...

...
Anonymous said...
Bomber Where's your head at? Hard-working non-violent activists are locked up and implicitly accused of terrorism.

That fucks me off too, there are people I know locked up here.

Communities are invaded by armed cops smashing in doors and windows and terrorizing elders, men, women and children.
I agree - outragous, totally unacceptable.

And your response is to defend the cops while even Ross Meurant (off all people) can see they are out of line?
NOOOO - that's what the Herald said, what I said is that when the full allegations and the stupid things people say when they are all a bit full of themselves are revealed mainstream NZ is going to freak out and THEN most people in NZ would not see the action taken by the police as a gross over reaction.

I'm staggered bro? Is there some subtle strategy I'm not grasping? I hope so because you just blew what little credibility you had left with a lot of people who post on Indymedia. Korero mai Danyl Strype
I know, I've already been told I'm a traitor, and pro Police (me, of all people for cyring out loud), what my activist friends need to understand is how them running around playing soldier is going to look to the wider public - we win our arguement against injustice and fight for peace with our words and ideas - you start bringing guns into the equation and we lose the high ground. This is a principle thing for me, you don't pick up guns, grenade launchers have no place in a functioning democracy. I'm all for symbolic damage, I supported Tim with the axe through the window, support scratching up SUVs, the odd brick thrown here and there - symbolic stuff to highlight the anger and gain attention - but you touch a gun and you cross a line.

 
At 18/10/07 11:25 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If someone if such a fucken dick head to declare an IRA-style war on New Zealand from something that has happened over 100 years ago lock them up and throw away the key.

Come on the treaty does not even apply to me I am not English I am not Maori but yet everyone still has to go through this year after year day after day.

Its rubbish bulid a bridge climb over it and start a new this is New Zealand. My New Zealand your New Zealand it belongs to everyone
we as a people are New Zealand. I think break ties from the crown and lets move on. Drop the shit from 100 years ago and stop living in the past.

 
At 18/10/07 11:36 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry I was not trying to sound like I dislike maoris or that I dislike the crown but its quite clear that this issue will never be over, someone from outside this needs to stop it.

I think it would be best of we broke away from the crown and in doing that we can drop all the problem.

Come on its not our fault what our Ancestors have done I do not agree with what has happened and i'm quite sure if we could go back and change it we would but shit happens, none of us today were alive from back then so lets all live in the now cause this whole thing has gone too far for too long.

There thats my thoughts.

 
At 18/10/07 11:38 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And your response is to defend the cops while even Ross Meurant (off all people) can see they are out of line?"

Haha Ross Meurant doesn't exactly like the Police something about being charged for impersonating a Police officer apparently.

And I don't think you should mention Indy Media and credible in the same line.

Symbolic gestures are one thing, in order to make a point or highlight an injustice, getting guns, bombs and declaring war on a democratically elected government is an entirely different kettle of fish.

One might think that peace groups would be condemning such actions rather than condoning them.

 
At 18/10/07 12:54 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't take it so hard Bomber.

If some nutters who want to overthrow a representative democracy by force call you a traitor then is it really a loss.

 
At 18/10/07 1:16 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree with all the above. Really, until we find out the charges/evidence etc, who knows what was planned/going on?

But, the hypocrisy and blinkeredness of some of the leftists (on the indymedia site for example) is astounding. Someone asked on this site the other day, what the response would be if it was, say the national front? We wouldn't be hearing the screeching that we are now, guaranteed.

The loony left need to realise that the power (both coercive and surveillance) of the modern state is so great now, that anything other than legit protest & demos will be crushed. Sad, but true. Start playing rambo & you're falling into the hands of the coppers.

And the comparisons to 1913 & 1951 are so asinine as to be redundant...

 
At 18/10/07 1:17 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suggest we teach some of these misfit anti-capitalists a good lesson by giving them an all expenses paid trip to Baghdad for 6 months,they like anarchy then they should love it!then if they are still alive bring them back here,if they still bleat and act like the losers they are then they go back for good. .
In short if you have a problem with this great country of ours then fuck off!
The less fuck wits in nz the better!

 
At 18/10/07 1:18 pm, Blogger Mana said...

Anonymous said...
Sorry I was not trying to sound like I dislike maoris or that I dislike the crown but its quite clear that this issue will never be over, someone from outside this needs to stop it.
The CROWN OF ENGLAND is the only one that can stop it anon, it is clear to us that this nzgovt will not, it does paint the picture that it does, which seems to impress the many with the same view as you; I don't want have a go at you and say your views are wrong, but if you want this issue to be sorted then complain to the nzgovt and ask them to return to us our rights, our independence which was secured since 1835, some might find this hard to believe, may even mock the thought, at least hear us out and don't close off you mind to this. The CROWN of ENGLAND secured our rights, our independence again in 1852 with the NZ Constitution; like I said in another post, we are not at war with you, its the nzgovt we question, we question it constitutional status, we question the nzgovt, yet your request to remove the Crown, I can only ask which crown are you talking about? We don't have a Problem with the CROWN OF ENGLAND its nz Crown we have the problem with. I hope I can make sense of this for you.

I think it would be best of we broke away from the crown and in doing that we can drop all the problem.
Most have the same idea too, we just don't see it this way, sorry the only one thats robbing us is the nz Crown not the ENGLISH CROWN

Come on its not our fault what our Ancestors have done I do not agree with what has happened and I'm quite sure if we could go back and change it we would but shit happens, none of us today were alive from back then so lets all live in the now cause this whole thing has gone too far for too long.
Well truth be told anon, we can not ask governor grey and gore to put these things right, so the responsibility must fall on the shoulders on there children, it is not a new thing? your acestors children have carried on there lying legacy, would that be our fault for? EXAMPLE when the Queen of England said by letters patent "NO BILLS OR LAWS SHALL BE PASTED THAT BREECH THE TREATY OF WAITANGI" one would expect its colonial subjects governor grey and gore to heed to the order, yet not only did they not listen to it, they lied to the CROWN about what was happening here. Sorry if this offends the many, but like I said this is real to us and it wont go away while it still stands, now moving along into our present day that patent letter still exist, yet we have a seabed and foreshore act, the Tohunga Suppression act, West coast Settlers Act, just to name some, this west coast settlers act is 2 years jail if a Maori stops a surveyor surveying maoriland?.. which was used on Maori when the 1865 Native Land courts came into play. So if you want it sorted complain to nzgovt, why is it that we are at fault for want something that was rightfully ours?

There thats my thoughts.
Now combined

 
At 18/10/07 1:33 pm, Blogger karlos said...

Maori certainly have injustices to address, no doubt there. But when one looks at the context, these in justices can in no way call for armed insurrection.

Today, Maori are treated as equals under law. There are historical injustices and that need to be rectified and there have been small steps taken in this direction. Maori should continue to push in this direction. Many Pakeha support this principle.

Based on what I have read (between the lines sometimes), this recent 'declaration of war' has nothing to do with correcting past injustice, but to try and break away from NZ Society and set up an alternate nation. Is this what tino rangatira tanga means to them?

I have long supported Maori sovereignty, but I never interpreted it as separatism. I interpreted it as building union with a central focus on Aotearoa, the lands heritage.

If any group organises militarily to 'liberate' land from the Govt, NZ has a problem.
There maybe 'valid' reasons for armed struggles (look at the oppression of Palestinians within Israel, or Apartheid S.Africa for example), but this isn't one of them.

Whether Iti and the others are guilty, time will have to tell. No one is in a position to make a call on that right now.

 
At 18/10/07 2:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Someone asked on this site the other day, what the response would be if it was, say the national front?"

And Maia still hasn't answered my question on that issue. Maybe her pc was seized during the raid. She is definately not moderating

 
At 18/10/07 2:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mana I do agree with you and respect your thoughts, however living in the past will not bring New Zealand into the future.

There are more parties involved in your struggle then just NZgovt vs Maori, you have people in this now who have nothing to do with the treaty at all, and who from an outside point of view think its time to stop.

We should all be able to have access to the land and should not need people to be indpendent from the rest of new zealand this will only make more hate.

I think its great Maori finaly are playing a smart game not a stupid one however your hero tami iti needs to be pulled into line cause its shit like this that is making us all take one step foward and two steps back.

 
At 18/10/07 2:26 pm, Blogger lurgee said...

"But in the last eighteen months you haven't called for a violent revolution, nor have you been hoarding a mini arsenal of weaponry."

I'm prone to calling for revolution over most things. Doesn't mean I'm going to do it, though. It is called shooting my mouth off.

As for the guns, I'm not a hunter myself, but if I were, or if I were running some sort of outdoor survival course, I might have a few.

As for the Molotiv cocktails, remember Mohammed Haneef, the doctor arrested in Australia over the Glasgow bombings? How his SIM card was alleged to have been at the site of the crash, only it wasn't? How it was claimed he was fleeing the country without notifying his employer, only he wasn't? How he was supposed to have been taking photographs of Australian landmarks, only he hadn't? Perhaps the same mysterious alchemy will beset the Molotiv cocktails, and they'll turn out to be some petrol being stored in jars in a shed. As for the napalm, how do you know naplam when you see? Was it is a bottle labelled NAPALM? If so, I'll bet it turns out to be some of Iti's homebrew.

Bear in mind this is from someone who things there probably enough evidence to justify at least some of the police actions.

As I remarked on another thread, if there really is an "IRA style campaign," then I beg the activist / terrorists to reconsider. I'm British, so I ahve some insifght into how effective the IRA were. They weren't. Eventually, they realsied that blowing people and things up wasn't accomplishing anything, got bored with it and started talking and using the democratic system, and that was when they started to accomplish their goals. The same thing is apparent in Palestine, where Palestinian terrorism isn't achieving anything other than strengthening the grip of the extreme right in Israeli politics.

 
At 18/10/07 2:55 pm, Blogger Luke said...

Using the IRA as an example of the "threat" "they" pose is just another scare tactic.

As bomber said: "you don't pick up guns, grenade launchers have no place in a functioning democracy."
With that said we also got to realise and not ignore that they are there at the disposal of the public, so as long as they are there then they become apart of this society.

 
At 18/10/07 7:40 pm, Blogger Mana said...

yes yes in some respect I will agree with bombers quotation "you don't pick up guns, grenade launchers have no place in a functioning democracy". I would be lying if I say I have not entertained the thought of such actions myself, for most that are directly effected thought are the same.

Yet unlike most I would rather wait to see what they can prove before I jump on the terrorist trail, that in my opinion would only be fair. I'll address everyone that commented to me about what I wrote previously as their is some things I think I should comment on;

karlos said...
Maori certainly have injustices to address, no doubt there. But when one looks at the context, these in justices can in no way call for armed insurrection.
first thanks for the acknowledgment of the injustices Karlos; much appreciated indeed, my comments of armed insurrection I commented on a few moments ago, yet without proof and charges laid one just can not tell, if its arm insurrection or police fabrication, so in fairness; I'll wait all the same. Please don't read into this, as my support for Tame Iti and his merry men, no I don't support Tame Iti, I don't even consider him a real activist, more a weather man.

Today, Maori are treated as equals under law. There are historical injustices and that need to be rectified and there have been small steps taken in this direction. Maori should continue to push in this direction. Many Pakeha support this principle.
One could only wish that it was true Karlos "Maori being equal under the law" if these things are true, we would see the repeal of the west coast settlers act the Tohunga suppression act repeal over the foreshore and seabed act, 1953 Maori Affairs Act or 1990 Maori Fisheries Act; yet nothing is done, nothing, yes we do, continue to fight on, no it is not easy.

Based on what I have read (between the lines sometimes), this recent 'declaration of war' has nothing to do with correcting past injustice, but to try and break away from NZ Society and set up an alternate nation. Is this what tino rangatira tanga means to them?
Sorry Karlos I can't answer this for them; amongst us, their are fights to over doctrine of all things? we believe in a certain way, when it does not ring well with others, a split is made and another group is formed, I don't agree with it; I can answer this though; it not about division as some think.

I have long supported Maori sovereignty, but I never interpreted it as separatism. I interpreted it as building union with a central focus on Aotearoa, the lands heritage.
I wanted to answer part of the last paragraph here as it ties in; Maori Sovereignty is real recognised by the privy council. This is not about separatism and I'll apologise here if thats how you understood my last comment about "wanting our independence", its not about separatism its about sharing, were not saying GET OUT we are saying MOVE OVER THAT SEAT LOOKS BIG ENOUGH FOR US BOTH.

If any group organises militarily to 'liberate' land from the Govt, NZ has a problem.
There maybe 'valid' reasons for armed struggles (look at the oppression of Palestinians within Israel, or Apartheid S.Africa for example), but this isn't one of them.

I don't know what Tame Iti was up too, if asked if I think their terrorist I would say "NO" But I don't believe anyone will really know how we feels or how it effects us, unless you've been caught in the mist of it; I would be liar if I said I haven't thought of taking up arms, but that it because it effects me, I fight for my ancestors land that was taken from us and for the rates they tell me I must pay for Maori land; for what may I ask? There no power, no roads, no sewer lines, no water lines, so what am I paying rates for on Maori land... LOL sorry; thats my struggle I don't expect you to understand that.

Whether Iti and the others are guilty, time will have to tell. No one is in a position to make a call on that right now.
This is true and like you we will wait and see.

Anonymous said...
Mana I do agree with you and respect your thoughts, however living in the past will not bring New Zealand into the future.
I realise anon that some of the things I could say may offend you and others so I will try to choose my words, "carefully" we Maori don't call it living in the past, the foreshore and seabed act is proof of that; yet even if we talk about the 1835 this and the 1907 that; these are laws that are very much active for us "Maori Only" today. I don't know how this is living in the past anon. Yet the answer to these issues; is about sorting out the past. Maori have a proverb that translates like this: "PAST IS GOOD, SO IS THE FUTURE" it is for things like this as to why some wont lets go. yet I understand why you say it, I guess you see it as petty or something of the like; yet for us, it is our family, our ancestors, our Taonga, our Mana, the Wairua of our ancestors, it is what makes us who we are; to say just forget it and move on, its something that wont happen, not now not ever, until it sorted.

There are more parties involved in your struggle then just NZgovt vs Maori, you have people in this now who have nothing to do with the treaty at all, and who from an outside point of view think its time to stop.
Sorry I have heard this argument many many times, choosing to live in this country means the Treaty of Waitangi applies, how can it not? yet I think it's fair to say, "if they choose to have nothing to do with it, then they shouldn't have anything to say about it. Same deal, if I don't vote, why should I complain about whose major?

We should all be able to have access to the land and should not need people to be indpendent from the rest of new zealand this will only make more hate.
Here is the problem I have over this one anon, firstly though; I understand what your saying, yet for the ones that choose not to have any part in the Treaty, one, in my opinion should have a say about treaty issues, I am ok with people have access to land anon, the access to all land, hmmm? in relation to the foreshore and seabed one must realise our ancestors lived and died and were buried in some places where the govt are now testing the earth for oil, (sorry should I say minerals) Yet the Treaty of Waitangi agreement said to Maori "Full exclusive and undisturbed Rights to there Land, Fish, Forest etc. etc it goes on to say "And whatsoever they wish to remain in there procession as long as it is their wish to retain them" I believe people read into it to much, and again I will apologise to you and anyone that thought I meant I want to be separate, independence doesn't mean separatism, maybe if I say "we want our right to deal with our own affairs, in accordance with the 1852 NZ Constitution section 9 -10 (for some that don't know what that is, heres a link) http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8973/zealandconstitutionactmi1.jpg
this is not something new, it is something the CROWN OF ENGLAND wanted this nzgovt and the governors before it to follow, I don't know why thats so hard for them to swallow.


I think its great Maori finaly are playing a smart game not a stupid one however your hero tami iti needs to be pulled into line cause its shit like this that is making us all take one step foward and two steps back.
Anon please, let not make this personal; I already deal with the likes of this day in day out, I don't think Tame Iti as a hero let alone "my hero". I can not answer for him sorry, yet its still up in the air as to what was happening down their, so I would save my comment until the police sort out what their doing, I am as interested about it as you are, I assure you.

Sorry if anything I said offends, that not it intent.

 
At 18/10/07 8:02 pm, Blogger Mana said...

please excuse my laziness not to proof read the stuff I write... I hope no one struggled with it..

Sorry

 
At 18/10/07 8:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I said

I think its great Maori finaly are playing a smart game not a stupid one however your hero tami iti needs to be pulled into line cause its shit like this that is making us all take one step foward and two steps back.

I am sorry for this it was a bit childish. However

Sorry I have heard this argument many many times, choosing to live in this country means the Treaty of Waitangi applies, how can it not? yet I think it's fair to say, "if they choose to have nothing to do with it, then they shouldn't have anything to say about it. Same deal, if I don't vote, why should I complain about whose major?

I was born in this country choosing to live here was not an option i decided on, I did not create the treaty I did not sign the treaty however

if they choose to have nothing to do with it, then they shouldn't have anything to say about it.

It is hard not to have my say about it because it affects everyone a pakaha is a pakaha no matter their stance on treaty this is crap. I am not a pakaha I am a New Zealander just like maori are New Zealanders.

How can any one claim land as being theirs, no one owns the land that kind of attitude is selfish their are far more pressing issues in the country facing not only Maori but also Pakaha however the treaty seams to be some kind of excuss to get everyone off the hook.

I think remove the treaty and lets deal with the real issues, poverty, unemployment, abuse they are not just Maori issue they are also pakaha issues.

Its gone on long enough and its getting to the point that its being drilled into childern, this is rubbish.

Well its good to see anothers point of view and even better to see we agree on some things.

 
At 18/10/07 8:25 pm, Blogger karlos said...

Thanks for your comments Mana.
I like what you said about the seat being big enough for "both of us".

I know it is not an easy situation for Maori to be in, and that is why I have supported tino rangatira tanga. Perhaps with some ignorance because I am not close to the movement. Better Maori control over the land than selling it to foreigners I reckon. But this assumes that Maori believe they are kiwis, new zealanders, people of Aotearoa. Just like the rest of us.

When I said Maori are equal under law, i meant it in comparison to other colonial countries.

About the foreshore and seabed act... you continue to fight on. That's fine. I support you, in word and vote. But just remember that this issue has to be presented in ways acceptable to pakeha, because they are now people of the land too.

In the same way that I would resolve the palestine-israel conflict without a single Israeli having to leave his home, I would resolve Maori Sovereignty claims in ways to serve Maori and Pakeha.

We cannot undo the past, but we can make the future better.

 
At 18/10/07 10:20 pm, Blogger Mana said...

but we can make the future better.

Now thats something we both agree on

 
At 19/10/07 12:08 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bomber have you got anything other than moral panic?
Then I hope you had that chat with the cops.
Activists crossing over the sometimes thin line to Fantasists, you know how a good story grows when not constrained by facts.
Just because its throbing doesn't mean you have got your finger on the pulse.

 
At 19/10/07 12:23 am, Blogger Mana said...

Anonymous said...
......However

MANASorry I have heard this argument many many times, choosing to live in this country means the Treaty of Waitangi applies, how can it not? yet I think it's fair to say, "if they choose to have nothing to do with it, then they shouldn't have anything to say about it. Same deal, if I don't vote, why should I complain about whose major?

I was born in this country choosing to live here was not an option i decided on, I did not create the treaty I did not sign the treaty however
What point does this make anon; we Maori should forget it because you were born in this country and say you don't want it? The Treaty of Waitangi is one of NZ founding documents without it, you would not of had a place to be born into, well at least no here anyway. Yet in your opinion, I should forfeit my rights, the legacy of my ancestors because you are tied of hearing about it? what can I say to that, hows buy some earplugs? How does it effect you anon? I'll try to understand your angle to this, if only I knew of the burdens it causes you.

MANAif they choose to have nothing to do with it, then they shouldn't have anything to say about it.

It is hard not to have my say about it because it affects everyone a pakaha is a pakaha no matter their stance on treaty this is crap. I am not a pakaha I am a New Zealander just like maori are New Zealanders.
Sorry I will not agree on this at all, I have no problem with someone that has their say, opinions vary; you wish to be called a New Zealander then thats what you are; if you wish to be called a Kiwi thats fine too; but to call me a New Zealander or a kiwi, I am sorry, but my identity is important to me, I am Maori, a Rangatira, a tanagata whenua; trying to place me in the same basket just wont work, we are all unique, the heritage of my ancestors I will not replace. just for the convenience of others so my answer is; Sorry, not me. I have watch this over the years; Kiwis this and kiwis that, for you thats cool; not for me, sorry No trade; I'll keep Iwi and will not replace it for Kiwi

How can any one claim land as being theirs, no one owns the land that kind of attitude is selfish their are far more pressing issues in the country facing not only Maori but also Pakaha however the treaty seams to be some kind of excuss to get everyone off the hook.
Their no easy way to answer this, I never wanted to offend, yet sometime truth must prevail, no matter what; right.. my apologies in advance; from the beginning anon Maori tribes used the land we were Kaitiaki to it; (guardians) we all knew the land, we live in our own areas each to there own, which was how that land was split, we didn't say it was ours, in the sense that it was my corner of the forest, no combine one Iwi collectively managed the land, every Iwi all over did the same, King Country, Ngapuhi, Ngati Mamoe, now settlers come and started to buy into the areas, regardless for how much, the brought blocks 2 acres 4 acres etc etc... then the nz govt formed, the the Native land courts; It was this machine that brought in single ownership of the land, surveying of Maori land started then they called Maori to the Native Land courts all over the Motu and asked who owns Opahi block c 23, from the tribes elders would send reps to talk to them, to say that the whole tribe lives in this area, needing it to survive, Native Land court will write the names of them that came as the owners of the land. If its deem selfish anon, my suggestion to you is to stand up and look south into Wellington find that govt building and tell them. it was that Machine that kick that selfishness into play. Ignorance is bliss huh?
last thing please tell me how we use the Treaty of Waitangi as and excuse?


I think remove the treaty and lets deal with the real issues, poverty, unemployment, abuse they are not just Maori issue they are also pakaha issues.
I believe that if the govt tried to do this "remove the Treaty" they will see and insurrection like never before, whether you like it or not anon, Treaty is also a real issue, why is it hard to sort? why is it so hard to do, most acknowledge the injustices so why is it hard to sort?

Its gone on long enough and its getting to the point that its being drilled into childern, this is rubbish.
its only rubbish to you because it does not directly effect you anon, it effect us directly

Well its good to see anothers point of view and even better to see we agree on some things.
It not an personal issue anon, it is only our rights, it is a huge mess, yet it can be sorted and it can work, no one wants this more than us, believe me

 
At 19/10/07 11:50 am, Blogger karlos said...

Mana,

Whilst I agree with some of what you say, you are on the path of separatism. It is a thin line and you have crossed it a few times above.

There is no reason for insurrection, even if the treaty is annulled. Would you rather the land burns than be shared as a modern State?

Also, it is a personal issue. Like the human rights which were taken from your ancestors 150 years ago, Pakeha and Maori today have rights. Don't refuse to balance these rights because of the past injustice. Let's work forward, not backwards.

It is sad to hear you say you are not a NZer, or a Kiwi. I think you are confusing ethnicity with Nationality. I am a NZer with Middle Eastern ethnicity. You may call yourself as a NZer with an indigenous Maori ethnicity. Be proud of the ethnicity and keep it alive. But do not rubbish OUR nationality (yours and mine).

 
At 19/10/07 11:57 am, Blogger karlos said...

By the way Mana.
I am happy to identify as Pakeha, as long as you don't use it to oppress me. Same should apply to you if you identify a NZer.

Do you (ethnically Maori) want to stand with me (ethnically Middle Eastern), together as the nation of Aotearoa. Or do you want to stand separate?

Will you remove me from my home today if you find your ancestor lived there 150 years ago? Or would you be happy to buy up the house next door?

 
At 19/10/07 12:42 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One day we the true owners of this land will claim it back as is rightfully ours and your blood will flow in the streets.

 
At 19/10/07 2:26 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maori never owned the land you ignorant turd. They were mere guardians.
Anyway, they didn't have streets so you won't be claiming those back. Blood or not.

 
At 19/10/07 4:27 pm, Blogger Mana said...

karlos said...
Mana,
Whilst I agree with some of what you say, you are on the path of separatism. It is a thin line and you have crossed it a few times above.

If choosing not to lose my identity Karlos is separatism, then make a separatism card; because my identity as Maori is important to me. Sorry if thats hard for anyone to swallow, I wouldn't move to Thailand raise a family and expect my kids to try and convince all the the Thai's to change and call themselves Cobra or Thailanders. I stand by the what I said about sharing this countries resources. "sharing" thats the key word, but my identity is not up for consideration.

There is no reason for insurrection, even if the treaty is annulled. Would you rather the land burns than be shared as a modern State?
I doubt that this will ever happen, the agreement was for the CROWN OF ENGLAND to set up a govt to manage and govern over the colonist flocking to this country, the settlers kicked off the govt via NSW. I really don't know why it is so hard to sort, it is not like any of this is made up, not that I agree with insurrection karlos, I believe an attempt to remove the Treaty will result with insurrection.

Also, it is a personal issue. Like the human rights which were taken from your ancestors 150 years ago, Pakeha and Maori today have rights. Don't refuse to balance these rights because of the past injustice. Let's work forward, not backwards.
I am cool with working forward; just tell me what we should do about the foreshore and seabed? and our native fishing rights; remember the treaty said "Full exclusive and undisturbed Rights to there Land, Fish, Forest etc. etc it goes on to say "And whatsoever they wish to remain in there procession as long as it is their wish to retain them" but now, yes thats right NOW we are allowed 15%.. this isn't all about 150 years ago, the laws are active NOW. so if you want to work forward lets remove them, thats a start. You know Karlos these laws are only for us Maori.

It is sad to hear you say you are not a NZer, or a Kiwi. I think you are confusing ethnicity with Nationality. I am a NZer with Middle Eastern ethnicity. You may call yourself as a NZer with an indigenous Maori ethnicity. Be proud of the ethnicity and keep it alive. But do not rubbish OUR nationality (yours and mine).
Sorry if you saw it that way; I know this country as Aotearoa, I am born here a Maori as was my Tupuna, as far back as 1823 I can go and I know them all by name; sorry my nationality is Maori thats all I am. I am happy for you to call yourselves Kiwi or New Zealander, but it is not who I am, sorry I wont trade my Iwi for Kiwi; not this Maori anyway.

karlos said...
By the way Mana.
I am happy to identify as Pakeha, as long as you don't use it to oppress me. Same should apply to you if you identify a NZer.

I don't have to many hang ups about Pakeha, my fight carries me to the nzgovt, I really don't have any hang up on what you wish to be called either Karlo... if your happy about it sweet, maybe we can move forward and you to can ask the nz govt to repeal these laws i spoke about.

Do you (ethnically Maori) want to stand with me (ethnically Middle Eastern), together as the nation of Aotearoa. Or do you want to stand separate?
I think I have made this clear, it is about "SHARING" now sharing is a 2 way street, so far the call is only for us to let it go? why is it not, called for the govt to put things right?... I like this quote by Malcom X: I believe in the brotherhood of all men, but I don't believe in wasting brotherhood on anyone who doesn't want to practice it with me. Brotherhood is a two-way street. Now that sums it up for me.

Will you remove me from my home today if you find your ancestor lived there 150 years ago? Or would you be happy to buy up the house next door?
You kinda make it a little personal, but in all situations Karlos I expect the nzgovt to make amends to us for the confiscation of the past, it was this machine that did the damage, or did your ancestors personally come here and cheat my ancestor out of the land? NO!.. sweet, then together lets go ask the nz govt to sort out the injustices.

 
At 20/10/07 5:03 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm all for separatism. I want to live separate from Maori and I hope that some day Maori soverignty becomes a reality so that I can live in my little corner of New Zealand and not think about let alone see a Maori. We were never meant to live together. Two countries - Pakehaland and Maoriland totally independent. That will be my dream. As such, Tino Rangatiratanga is a good thing to this Pakeha!

 
At 20/10/07 11:39 pm, Blogger Mana said...

lol well theirs heaps of Maori that feel the same way, yet they don't even want you here, let alone share this counties resources...

But I wish you luck of your quest lol

 
At 20/10/07 11:59 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some of you Maori are getting a little high on your own supply. Just because you can trace an ancestral line to some piece of land does not give you a right to it now. Get over it. Move on. Live in today.
Get some worldly experience. Go see the world. It's a lot bigger than this little island.

 
At 21/10/07 7:26 am, Blogger Mana said...

Some Maori do get hi off of there own supply just not this Maori, By the the way anon its not because we can trace our whakapapa back to land; it more a fact that we want back what was stolen; either by way of deception or by Legislative theft; even by death was maoriland taken; so you want us to "get over it, move on, forget the reasons why my ancestors where killed huh. Well how about you line up you grand parents I'll come down and kill them take procession of their house and we "move on" from there?

As for seeing the world been there and done that;

 
At 21/10/07 1:50 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey mana

I'm interested on your view regarding the seizure of land by Maori against other Maori tribes.

How do you reconcile those issues?

 
At 21/10/07 4:28 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who came up with the term IRA styled war?

It doesn't fit at all.

Firstly not enough people are involved to call it a war (if you believe the hype that is - thanks again Bomber).

It would be a popular uprising & any sentiments for an uprising would be fringe at best.

Which rebirth of Irish Natioanlism are you looking to?

The last one from the 1970s Troubles took place in depressed economic time in a Gerry Mandered electorate. Although prosperity has passed many by this is hardly an economically depressed time & the Maori seats & party point to a higher level of inclusion in the process.

OK there are a lot of injustices - race based banning from court action is a dozey & the way labour won the last election. But we're no where near an IRA styled war.

Oh yeah Iwi land disputes are normally handled in the Waitangi Tribunal.

Michael

 
At 21/10/07 9:38 pm, Blogger Mana said...

Anonymous said...

Hey mana
I'm interested on your view regarding the seizure of land by Maori against other Maori tribes.
How do you reconcile those issues?

G anon you might need to clarify this one a bit more, who, what, when and where

Old Maori custom use to settle disputes via marriage between disputing tribes, of course war if the dispute could be settled.. Elders would congregate via Hui and settle indifferences.

Where I am from now days during hui of after a Tangi (generally when everyone is gathered) the person with the Taake (dispute) will lay it out for all to here, example; if someone stole my horses and I knew who, I will tell everyone in front of the accused, of course proof is required, he will have the opportunity to make amends, if he can't sometime the brother or Father, uncle might step in to pay for damages, if this is the case... the Taake (dispute is settled) you could call it common law. it is never mentioned again.

 
At 29/10/07 5:11 am, Blogger Strypes said...

Kia ora Bomber,

"This is a principle thing for me, you don't pick up guns, grenade launchers have no place in a functioning democracy."

I agree. I agree with what you and Chris Trotter and others have been saying about the inappropriateness of armed struggle in Aotearoa at this time. I agree with the distinction you make between forms of political action that damage property (nonviolent direct action) and those that harm sentient beings (eg police forces and other smaller warrior subcultures, like the gangs). I agree with your support for the use of reasonable force only in direct self defence, by independent communities under armed attack from neighbours who demand to be their government (for example Timor Leste, and the Zapatistas in the Chiapas).

I believe all of those currently in prison would also agree with you and I on each of these points. Which is why I don't believe the implied accusation that any of them were handling guns with the aim of hurting people - the accusation which forms the basis on which they are being denied bail and threatened with Terrorism Suppression Act charges.

To quote Green MP Keith Locke:
"The only political violence that has happened this week is in the precincts of parliament itself".

For generations, Maori have fought for their rights and their autonomy in staunch but nonviolent ways. With incredible patience they have abstained from the violent use force, despite constant aggressive reinvasion of their independent communities and confiscation of the taonga, such as the recent case of the foreshore and seabed. When armed police threatened their elders and children with guns last week, Tuhoe remained stubbornly peaceful, despite all the paramilitary training, and the hatred for whitey they have supposedly been whipped into up in the bush in Urewera.

As for the greeny lefties people claim are plotting sedition with them, both Maori and pakeha; the occupiers of Waimangaroa from Save Happy Valley, the Peace Action Wellington crew, the anarchist librarian, Omar Hamed (the Harry Potter of Aotearoa activism), docospotter Rongomai Bailey and the rest of the Kotahi Te Ao video crew; they are about as threatening as the Wombles.

The police, on the other hand, have waged a campaign of home invasion, intimidation, kidnapping, and assault across the country. Not only do I have evidence of these actions, they don't even deny them. Item: activists rounded up, roughed up, denied access to lawyers, and denied bail on petty fire-arms license charges while accused rapists walk free awaiting trial.
Item: A Community House in Welly whose avacados were taken in for questioning. Item: The elderly socialist in Orkland with the terrifying trousers. Item: The permaculture consultants who organise the *ECOSHOW* for goodness sake, are they suggesting a clandestine guerrilla movement (quietly run by the very subtle and elusive Tame Iti) was running a stall at a public expo? The mind boggles.

Like Clint Rickards, the cops seem to reckon they were asking for it. As an anarchist woman speaking at the Upper Hutt Posse gig on Saturday night put it, these people are the terrorists, those they have imprisoned are the real counter-terrorists.

For the record, I don't think anyone who's been arrested has even been accused of having grenade launchers. This lazy, baseless inuendo reminds me of another farce of phantom military surplus that was played out during the Commonwealth Games in Auckland in 1990, also about a rocket launcher. That old launcher must have been playing possum, because the police searched high and low and never found one:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/466/story.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10472144&ref=rss

This sort of sensational tabloid media also brings to mind the 'Day of the Jackals' terror report on the NZAIF in Investigate, the rabidly neo-conservative conspiracy magazine:
http://www.thebriefingroom.com/archives/2007/10/day_of_the_jack.html

Where were the country-wide dawn raids to prevent this clear and present armed danger to public safety? Kelvyn Alp and his mates in the New Zealand Armed Intervention Force, according to Investigate, claimed to have a rocket launcher in their arsenal. It reported that one of their members was picked up with a sawn-off and military ammunition, that police knew they had fully automatic weapons, that they told police to stay out of their way or "We will go through you like a dose of salts". If this is true, why weren't the NZAIF's friends, in-laws, and various tenuously connected randoms searched for avacados and dirty undies by over-zealous cops? If not, could this story be a classic example of the sort of speculative feeding frenzy commercial media can fall into when the available facts don't support the angle their editor think will sell the most copies?

In the case of the Urewera 17, the ongoing suppression of evidence and decisions by the police and the courts, combined with the leaking of juicy titbits of fear and loathing, has driven the NZ news media into exactly just such a frenzy of speculation. One that currently has some overly excitable kiwis believing an unholy alliance of possum hunting backwoods Maori, and and militant vegan hippies, were planning a bloodbath to bring down the government. They talk about it as if it's a known and proven fact, despite being a ludicrously unlikely story.

On the basis of the evidence presented so far, like the weapons of mass distraction in Iraq, it's a myth. A myth designed to justify a NZ Police crack-down on independent political organisation in Aotearoa which Paul Buchanan has called Guantanomisation:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00355.htm

I bet you Bomber that when the cops finally unveil their evidence to the public (which at the rate things are going could take years), middle new zealand will be horrified - by it's utter lack of substance. This will cast a distinctly unflattering light on the NZ Police, SIS, GCSB, SAS, and everyone else who's helped perpetuate, and apologise for, yet another example of the creeping erosion of democracy in Aotearoa.

This is not a right vs. left issue, as evidenced by the consensus between the Greens and Act against the TSA ammendments. This is something every kiwi who cares about basic civil liberties and democratic freedoms should be asking some hard questions of the state about. Produce some evidence, and lay some charges justifying denial of bail, or free the 17. Habeas Corpus, people, show me the body.

Danyl Strype
Aotearoa Indymedia

 
At 29/10/07 5:56 am, Blogger Bomber said...

...
Danyl you write very well and you are an assett to the Indy community. I agree with a lot of what you have written and you have presented your arguement well - and I agree we will find that many of the Urewera 17 are exactly as you suggest, totally innocent of any of this - HOWEVER - some of these people have been playing soldier with some very unpleasent and criminally connected people - the grenade launcher was attempted to be purchased by elements of that faction - there seem to be two groups, those roped in and those planning something - yes the cops are pricks, but at the high levels a decision like this needed to be ticked off by a lot of people and those people were genuienly worried by what they had - how do you think middle NZ will react to photos of activists in balaclavas and AK47s? How is the activist community helping feed this with images like that? How can we claim to be pro peace with an AK47? And if the cops were just there to break balls - why was it that no one was busted for drugs or paraphanalia when they searched those houses? Hell in one home the cops found bongs and a p pipe but they didn't bust anyone for that, they weren't remotley interested in taking anyone down for that, which if this was all just a beat up they would have done *activists and drugs, it's an oldie but a goodie). There is much yet to play and I really fear the consequences to our movement and the way we could be discredited for the actions of a few fools who were manipulating the conscience of some good people. I hope I am wrong and you are right, I really do.

 
At 29/10/07 8:58 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To make a comment on the first post here. As far back as eight years ago,I met someone who was involved with Tame Iti and Others. "Someone" was helping with some documentation, involving Tuhoi and land rights."Someone" said to me there was definately a case to answer. The plan of Iti and Other's was to fight through all legal channels, which included at the time, the Privy Council, and only as a last resort turn to armed struggle! So there has been talk of it, however we all know the difference between talking and action, well it could be light years apart. I was also given names of some of the group involved at this time and none of them have been arrested! I suggest if there is still such a group in existence, Tame Iti is the jester.From what I have seen in the press so far it was all talk..and lets hope there is not a case to answer , otherwise look out for all activists...and may the gods help us if the police action is to be repeated...
Dandelion

 

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