Key says we are in Afghanistan to punish terrorists???
I wasn't going to get political on this issue of the death of a NZer in Afghanistan, but I've just heard our idiot PM on Breakfast (they had to interrupt former National Party candidate Paul Henry's 50th birthday celebrations with the news a soldier has been killed much to the annoyance of Paul) and Key has just said the reason we are in Afghanistan is because NZers have been killed by terrorist plots created in Afghanistan - what the bloody hell are you talking about moron? We are in Afghanistan to make America happy and you have continued that little joy ride by sending the SAS back in there. What proof does John Key have that the Taliban in the bloody back blocks of Afghanistan have ANYTHING to do with ANY terror attack to NZers??? Doesn't this idiot remember the press conference with the Taliban before the invasion when a NZ reporter asked the Taliban if they would attack NZ, and the Taliban had to ask where NZ was? Is Key seriously claiming that terror attacks against NZ are being planned out of Afghanistan and that this entire war is a pre-emptive war to stop 'terror attacks' against NZ??? It is the most stupid and weakest excuse for a war I've ever heard.
So the excuse as to why we are in Afghanistan this week ladies and gentlemen isn't hunting Bin Laden, it isn't freedom, it isn't democracy, oh no, the reason we are in Afghanistan this week from our moron leader is because we are stopping 'terror attacks' and punishing the unspecified deaths of NZers in terror attacks because apparently they originate out of Afghanistan.
It's all about punishing terrorists ladies and gentlemen, well that's a great reason to have NZ soldiers die on duty Mr Key, could you just explain to the country John where exactly the terrorists we are punishing are living and when are they planning to attack NZ next and could you just inform us how so many dead Afghanistan civilians helps stop the next generation of 'terrorists' to come after us?
I'm sick to death of right wing clowns justifying war.
posted by Bomber @ 8:30 am
31 comments
31 Comments:
Hear hear, anyone who tries to justify this morally indefensible war lives in a Historical vacuum. We (the West) have been successful in blustering the ranks of the Taliban, now even powerful in areas that dont have a Pashtun majority and have totally taken our eye off our original objective, Al-Qaeda, who even US intelligence admit are now almost non existent in Afghanistan, having moved to Yemen and Somalia.
This is about colonization not terrorist prevention. Not to mention the success that's being claimed in Iraq which is justifying a withdrawal in light of the democracy which still hasn't resulted in a government- no mention of that on the evening news/pr show. So soon we can witness another bloody civil war in Iraq, inevitable, and I support the withdrawal and wish we would do the same In Afghanistan, but it does help to illustrate our failings. That Patreaus could be heralded as a genius for resurrecting a failed Vietnam strategy only adding further to the insanity.
More evidence of our inadequacy...
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175277/tomgram%3A_engelhardt%2C_clueless_in_afghanistan_--_and_washington__/#more
Make no mistake about it John Key regards the death of this soldier as a boon to be exploited by him. He has put himself in front of this death, right from the start he has been exploiting the situation to give himself publicity.
The man is a parasite. His parents come to NZ without a brass razoo gazump a state house from which they set about targeting other NZers as potential sources of wealth. NZ becomes too small for Key after a while so he goes to amerika to make even more money, which he then uses to buy political power back in NZ.
His run to power; predicated on his claim to be born in a state house, targets the poor in exactly the same way this dead soldier has been used. That is as a means for John Key to get something. When he won power he set about shitting on poor people who had to live in state houses whilst dropping taxes for rich people such as himself.
Anything Key does to soldiers will be the same. That is it will kick joe private in the gonads (or is that joe gonad in the privates?) while helping out John Key.
Even Muldoon wasn't the unashamed leech that this creep is. Holyoake lined his own pockets a bit (Taupo bypass), but nothing like this. You would have to go back 100 years to find such greedy & selfish leader of NZ.
I don't have any qualms about talking politics in here. Three generations of my family have served and died in NZ's armed forces and I know most of the dead blokes would back me on this. They would be apoplectic with rage at the likes of John Key in charge.
Incidentally I have yet to hear of any afghani attacking anyone outside the borders of their own country. If it has happened it will be rare, probably unique. Most Afghanis respect others' territory exactly as they expect their territory to respected.
1. Taliban previously hosted Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
2. International jihadists flock to Afghanistan for training, before dispersing back around the globe.
3. Some come back to Indonesia, link up with Jemaah Islamiah, where their skill set is used to kill Westerners. In one Bali attack New Zealanders are injured in the attack, lucky not to have been killed. In the other Bali attack New Zealanders do die.
It is really not that hard to follow?
Whilst the Taliban themselves do not kill New Zealanders, their hosting of International Jihadists certainly does. If they are allowed to take control of most of Afghanistan once more they will pose a risk indirectly to New Zealanders if their past modus operandi is anything to go by.
So many many non-sunni civilians needed to be killed by the taliban and how many female girls who had acid thrown on their faces for wanting to go to school would it take for liberals to be outraged enough to give a shit?
Compassionate Conservative do you still believe that 19 (mostly) Saudis under the leadership of an old Saudi man with a kidney disease hiding in a cave somewhere can collapse 3 skyscrapers with 2 planes?
Thick much!
In the 1930s western Lefties flocked to fight fascism in Spain and elsewhere. Whatever happened to this proud tradition? Now this fascism has a radical islamist face and western democratic govts are on the right side but most on the left cannot get over their 4th form level anti-establishment thinking and knee jerk anti-americanism and contribute to this struggle.
@ Anon 12:06 pm
You forget that ANY intervention by the West around the world is seen as bad in the eyes of the hard left.
When Nato intervened in the former Yugoslavia it was decried by some as trying to spread the neo-liberal economic hegemony regardless of the fact that it probably stopped the death and displacement of hundreds of thousands of people.
You also forget that in the eye's of the hard left it is the Wests own fault that it is the target of terrorist attacks from the followers of a fanatical religion. The West isn't allowed to agressively defend itself but have to acknowledge the sins committed and beg forgiveness.
I see all the usual canards are coming out to justify the wasteful oppression of afghanis.
There were no afghanis on the 911 planes. When shrub tried to blame afghanistan as being the base for the 911 action, Mullah Omar quite reasonably offered to extradite anyone who the amerikans had proof of involvement. All the guys on the planes had come to amerika via Hamburg so shrub then tried to stick it on the former CIA employee, OBL. Once again Omar said lets see the proof, and once again amerika declined.
As for the usual complainta about acid in women's faces, not only do amerika's 'friends' do far worse Check out amerika's mates who are the dictaors in charge of Saudi Arabia. Much worse things happen to women on xtian mormon compounds in amerika, yet no one talks about bombing the bejesus outta them.
Those socio cultural issues (which they are, european countries had exactly the same customs when their societies were primarily agrarian with hereditary transfer of land) don't change because of outside interference anyway. They change as people change and people don't change when you put a gun to their heads. That just makes them more determined not to change.
A truck driver died in Hawke Bay yesterday------!
"n the 1930s western Lefties flocked to fight fascism in Spain and elsewhere. Whatever happened to this proud tradition? "
Post modernism and the left wing affliction of equating AmeriKKKa with evil irrespective of cause which meant an alliance with ANYONE opposed to AmeriKKKa - Islamic fundamentalism.
Of course some like Christopher Hitchens resisted the new diktate but most fell in with the party line of unquestioning obedience.
The tradition of liberal and principled leftwing internationalism is dead and buried and we should morn its passing.
Eure said
"european countries had exactly the same customs when their societies were primarily agrarian with hereditary transfer of land"
Oh well that's all right then, keep subjugating those womyn Islamists, we used to do it to way back when!
Travelereve said:"Thick much!"
Nice Amerikkkanism there eve - it is actually pretty funny coming from a troofer.
Haha...ah Travellerev, lets not get into the ins and outs of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories..I'll just leave it at "I find it highly unlikely that a massive inter-departmental governmental conspiracy hatched a nefarious plot to kill 3000 of their own citizens, with the aim of using this as the basis to do what..attack Iraq for its oil...via a mysterious operation in Afghanistan."
I find it hard to believe that 9/11 was the best the evil doers could come up with. Certainly doesn't conform to Keeping it Simple Stupid!
But, leaving that aside...what relevance does it have to the point at hand.
Do you deny that there were Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanisatn; which churned out foreign jihadists?
Do you deny that Azahari Husin received training in Afghanistan, and went on to mastermind a bombing in Bali.
No one is claiming that "The Taliban" are targetting NZrs directly, however they played host to people who have targetted NZrs in about as direct a way as you can in the "Muslin world."
And that's why the resurgent Taliban are being opposed, by a broad international coalition.
India and Russia also have an axe to grind with The Taliban, and wouldn't let the North Alliance be overrun in any case, even if / when the current US led forces leave.
The people of Afghanistan are Afghans.
Afghanis is the currency they use.
Compassionate Conservative; could we take it back a bit further though, what created the power vacuum in Afghanistan that made it so attainable to such an extreme and fundamental a form of Islam as the Taliban? Geography means Russia has an interest there as does it's significant history there as we all know - protection of the Northern Alliance an interesting irony given their part in collapsing their Empire. When The Russians withdrew and the Americans buggered off and left Ahmad Shah Massoud and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar scrapping to fill the void Pakistan's Taliban schools filled it instead (with a little help from Benazir Bhutto - 'She had allied her father's party, the PPP, with another party called the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam. They represented the Deobandis. Although the Deobandis hated politics they still knew they needed to be represented - and this deal brought them into the corridors of power.
Benazir Bhutto then decided to use her new allies to bring order to Afghanistan. Many of the Deobandi students were Pashtuns and Bhutto was convinced she could create a new force that would bring order to the country. It would also restore Pashtun power.
At the end of 1994 she and her interior minister, General Babar, unleashed the Taliban, backed by vast amounts of Pakistani arms and money. Within months the "students" had taken Kandahar and were advancing on Herat.'http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2010/01/afghanistan_didnt_just_defeat.html), although only for ten years we must remember, as we, like the Afghans are wise to view this conflict with some Historical context, at least back to the Raj and the Anglo Afghan wars. My understanding is that Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are practicing very different and conflicting versions of Islam, Al-Quada having bases in the borderlands between Afghanistan and Pakistan - a line in the sand drawn by the Brits - is not evidence that the Taliban was linked to their presence.
Anon 12.06. Isn't exactly our compassion that makes us call for an end to a conflict which has swelled the support for the Taliban. How is creating more Taliban and more extremism going to help women, please tell me. They're not there for the women, they didn't engage in that issue during the 10yrs of Taliban rule as they don't with countries they support, like Saudi Arabia or England (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law). Here is an article from a women who has some personal experience with Afghan women, you may find it interesting.http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175280/tomgram%3A_ann_jones%2C_in_bed_with_the_u.s._army__/
Armchair warrior; it is Fascism I'm interested in fighting, American Imperialism (not American's per say necessarily) is a form of Fascism I would put my pacifism aside for if their Reaper Drones patrolled here, but given we're not neighbors with Iran or near the Caspian Sea I will probably be lucky enough not to have to.
Gossman, "it probably stopped the death and displacement of hundreds of thousands of people." That can hardly be said of this conflict can it or the one in Iraq? And perhaps rather than beg forgiveness we could just learn from our blunders and try to stop creating more reasons for people to want to kill us. We are not safer now than we were before these conflicts, either in Iraq '500 civilians and soldiers were killed in July, which would make it the most deadly month in the country since 2008'- http://www.juancole.com/2010/08/us-military-mission-in-iraq-ends-not-with-a-bang-but-a-whimper.html
Or Afghanistan- http://www.juancole.com/2010/07/july-deadliest-month-ever-for-us-troops-in-afghanistan.html
And of coarse this makes us less safe here.
So to reiterate Bombers original question, what are we doing there?
Compassionate Conservative; could we take it back a bit further though, what created the power vacuum in Afghanistan that made it so attainable to such an extreme and fundamental a form of Islam as the Taliban? Geography means Russia has an interest there as does it's significant history there as we all know - protection of the Northern Alliance an interesting irony given their part in collapsing their Empire. When The Russians withdrew and the Americans buggered off and left Ahmad Shah Massoud and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar scrapping to fill the void Pakistan's Taliban schools filled it instead (with a little help from Benazir Bhutto - 'She had allied her father's party, the PPP, with another party called the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam. They represented the Deobandis. Although the Deobandis hated politics they still knew they needed to be represented - and this deal brought them into the corridors of power.
Benazir Bhutto then decided to use her new allies to bring order to Afghanistan. Many of the Deobandi students were Pashtuns and Bhutto was convinced she could create a new force that would bring order to the country. It would also restore Pashtun power.
At the end of 1994 she and her interior minister, General Babar, unleashed the Taliban, backed by vast amounts of Pakistani arms and money. Within months the "students" had taken Kandahar and were advancing on Herat.'http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2010/01/afghanistan_didnt_just_defeat.html), although only for ten years we must remember, as we, like the Afghans are wise to view this conflict with some Historical context, at least back to the Raj and the Anglo Afghan wars. My understanding is that Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are practicing very different and conflicting versions of Islam, Al-Quada having bases in the borderlands between Afghanistan and Pakistan - a line in the sand drawn by the Brits - is not evidence that the Taliban was linked to their presence.
Anon 12.06. Isn't exactly our compassion that makes us call for an end to a conflict which has swelled the support for the Taliban. How is creating more Taliban and more extremism going to help women, please tell me. They're not there for the women, they didn't engage in that issue during the 10yrs of Taliban rule as they don't with countries they support, like Saudi Arabia or England (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law). Here is an article from a women who has some personal experience with Afghan women, you may find it interesting.http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175280/tomgram%3A_ann_jones%2C_in_bed_with_the_u.s._army__/
Armchair warrior; it is Fascism I'm interested in fighting, American Imperialism (not American's per say necessarily) is a form of Fascism I would put my pacifism aside for if their Reaper Drones patrolled here, but given we're not neighbors with Iran or near the Caspian Sea I will probably be lucky enough not to have to.
Gossman, "it probably stopped the death and displacement of hundreds of thousands of people." That can hardly be said of this conflict can it or the one in Iraq? And perhaps rather than beg forgiveness we could just learn from our blunders and try to stop creating more reasons for people to want to kill us. We are not safer now than we were before these conflicts, either in Iraq '500 civilians and soldiers were killed in July, which would make it the most deadly month in the country since 2008'- http://www.juancole.com/2010/08/us-military-mission-in-iraq-ends-not-with-a-bang-but-a-whimper.html
Or Afghanistan- http://www.juancole.com/2010/07/july-deadliest-month-ever-for-us-troops-in-afghanistan.html
And of coarse this makes us less safe here.
So to reiterate Bombers original question, what are we doing there?
I apologize, I thought it hadn't gone through so broke it up into pieces, I know I'm going on but don't intend to repeat myself.
yeah AAMC that terrible old American Imperialism. Certainly worked out badly for Western Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea. I suggest you get your nose out of the collected works of Noam Chomsky and take a trip as I have done to the Demilitarised Zone between North and South Korea and see the difference between the 'American Imperialist' Sth Korea (free, prosperous, democratic and yes, Capitalist)and Nth Korea (closed, poor, state controlled, miserable but hey not an american lackey!)Even the crack Nth Korean troops they have at the DMZ look malnourished!. It will do your politics a world of good comrade...
I'm no comrade, I oppose dogma! How you view American Imperialism depends of course on whether you're in it's way or not and whether you have a desirable location. I'm not and for that I am grateful. And this is not an endorsement of North Korea or Stalin; are they really indicative of the idea of Communism though rather than the corruption of power - or are both systems - at their extreme, a form of Totalitarianim? You are allowed to see the failings in both sides.
Drones dropping bombs on wedding parties or Special Forces digging bullets out of bodies to remove evidence is no more desirable to me than the mismanagement of North Korean which is currently seeing it plunge back into starvation.
I have no sympathy for the extremes of Islam as I have no sympathy for the extremes of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Capitalism or Communism.
History did not stop post Hitler, and his actions do not give us an eternal justification for an endless war. As for Western Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea. How about the 50 countries the US has had a hand in overthrowing since the Second World War, Honduras for the sake of Bananas...
AAMC you are playing the moral equivalence game here.There is a world of difference between the lamentable civilian casualities occuring in afghanistan and the deliberate starvation and repression of a people (your use of the term mismanagement is a rather pathetic euphenism) happening in N Korea. As to the extremes of both systems leading to totalitarianism this may be so but practical proof of this to date has only been found on the left side - Stalin, Pol pot, Mao. Kim jong mentally ill,etc. Can you name a totalitarian capitalist state? George Bush or Ronnie Reagon in all their glory don't play at the same table as these boys...
No they play a much more clever game, they convince you it's all in your interests. I think you may have watched too much Star Wars as a child Armchair Warrior. There are shades of grey in the world, not just Black & White, Good vs Evil. I know it simplifies things, it just fails to represent the real world. America may lack the Gulags but it does have the highest rate of crime, gun ownership, homicide, incarceration, an enormous divide between the top few percent and the rest of the population, terrible drug addiction and homelessness. This is not a model society. So perhaps we are working our way towards a historical example at the moment. Or, if we choose not to believe every piece of PR spin thrown at us we may be able to avoid that. Time will tell, but don't tell me the powers of the Plutocracy are benign.
Who are 'They'?
I can imagine having a couple of beers around a BBQ with senior members of the US administration.
I can't imagine doing the same with any member of a totalitarian regime you're comparing them to.
If you look at the sum total of human history you should quickly realise that the societies in the West today are vast improvements on where they were in the past and are a world away from the totalitarian states like North Korea, Cuba, China, etc etc.
Yes they need to be held to account to their self professed high standards but they shouldn't be classed anywhere near as bad as the others.
newstalkzb.co.nz
last night / weds 9.30
The act of tragic violence that just occured can be translated thus:
Fuck off NZ.
We dont want your help.
Mind your own fucking business.
We Afghans dont come to your country with guns & tell you how to act.
If you guys are so concerned about humanitarian issues why arent your armed soldiers in Palesstine 'REBUILDING'.
This is just a rough translation mind..
The reason we are in Afghanistan is
because (Millionaire-safe in NZ) John Key insists upon it.
Fact.
The Chess player never dies.
Just the pieces on the board do.
Love to the family of the Departed.
So being able to imagine having a beer with someone defines them as good?
Of coarse you can't put America beside North Korea, it's a pretty obvious choice isn't it. But if I were to choose between say Switzerland or Norway or.... and American it's an interesting proposition also. The difference of coarse being power and greed, and a more powerful military and the good will of the Second World War. Of coarse humanity in general is guilty of those traits, particularly in those circumstances and others have chosen violence rather than propaganda to achieve their ends, but America's power needs to be considered. We need to be conscious of their history and whether their current decisions are well founded and their actions acceptable. Continuous war, empire expansion and the potential diabolical conflicts that can arise from this trajectory - made possible by the intoxication with the illusion that all of their endeavors are GOOD - makes it very difficult for 'The West" as defined by the Washington Consensus or more importantly the Pentagon to claim a moral high ground.
And it's approach is proving to fail and is causing more of the problems it's setting out to fix, so perhaps we could throw some more ideas on the table? So that we might actually weaken the Taliban and leave Afghanistan in a better place than we found it; unlike Iraq, in the middle of renewed sectarian violence and with no government.
Yes they need to be held to account to their self professed high standards but they shouldn't be classed anywhere near as bad as the others.
Simply because you share a similar cultural background. And NZ has only benefitted in the past from Western imperialism, never suffered from it. In fact NZ has in the past and still does play a role in supporting US imperialism.
The fact is the US has killed more innocent civilians these past two or three decades than those killed by those other regimes you mention multiplied by 100.
If you are an Iraqi, or an Afghan, you would hate America with white hot intensity - and yes, you could well wish to have senior members of the US administration over for a BBQ - only to roast them alive on it.
And that would be well justified.
The fact is far more people around the world hate America than they do say hate China or Russia.
Travelling on a Chinese passport is far safer in terms of being a victim of politically motivated violence than travelling on an American passport.
Says a lot don't you think?
So Gosman:
You would like to have a couple of beers with an evil old crone like Madeleine Albright?
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.
Can't recall anything so cold-blooded coming from Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, Fidel, Raul Castro, Ahmadinejad, or even Kim Jong Il.
Cold hearted proponent of mass murder Madeleine Albright stating US foreign policy.
He didn't mention Stalin or Mao, which makes sense of all of your comments- you obviously can't read Armchair Warrior- despite your suggestion..
But please clear it up for me, do you believe the sanctions which killed that million Iraqi's were justified? Or the support of Indonesia in East Timor? Or depleted uranium shells or agent orange? You suggested the other day I check out North Korea, I have checked out Cambodia and seen the effects of Agent Orange there!
My suggestions to you proclaiming Wayne is an idiot, don't throw stones in a glasshouse!
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