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Wednesday, July 14, 2010

More guns for NZ Police is not the answer!


More police to get guns
Police Association president Greg O'Connor said it was a shame it had taken more shootings to reach the stage where police would gain greater accessibility to weapons. "The time has come. We can't fly in the face of what we're seeing now."

WHAT ON EARTH IS O'CONNOR TALKING ABOUT? How could more guns have made this situation safer? The Police in this case just randomly burst into the home of a person based on smelling marijuana after they couldn't catch the person they were looking for with a search warrant. The person they burst in on reacted violently and tragically shot these cops, now how would arming the Police have made this safer? You storm anyone's house and they are likely to fight back like a badger in a hole, now before the usual pro-Police scream over that line, I'm not defending this clown who has shot two officers and their dog, but if the Police are going to aggressively start invading peoples homes based on something as petty as bloody marijuana, these reactions are what the Police are going to get back.

We have a Police philosophy of containment for this very reason, we don't want to cause and create conflicts, because human nature of fight or flight takes over, our containment policy allows cooler heads to talk people down, what is O'Connor wanting here? Police with drawn weapons kicking in the door like they do with their quasi-military police in America with all the mistakes and accidents men with drawn guns cause?

So how would giving the cops guns in this situation have helped? It wouldn't, they were both ambushed while storming someones home based on something as petty as 'I smell weed'.

More guns are not the answer, and once again O'Connor seems to be using a tragedy to demand more Police powers, look even if you get your guns they won't protect you from being ambushed like this!

The Police lesson here is that bursting into people's homes might get you shot, so, you need to be selective about whose homes you will burst into and the tactics around that issue should be carefully managed, if you leave those tactics to a couple of bored cops on the ground who are hanging around looking to do something after their first search warrant failed and move away from containment to a much more aggressive and armed approach it will only serve to cause more violence.

28 Comments:

At 14/7/10 7:35 am, Anonymous anfield1973 said...

Armed by Christmas. Then this story plays out with the cops able to return fire - Judge, Jury and Executioner

 
At 14/7/10 8:53 am, Anonymous Tim said...

Fuck yeah. It needs to happen asap. NZ is not the sleepy hollow it was 30 years ago. Criminals are arming themselves against each other, and cops are getting caught in the crossfire.

 
At 14/7/10 8:59 am, Anonymous fatty said...

Not surprised to wake up to this, its a predictable knee-jerk response by Collins.
The other option would be to redirect police resources to fight true crime and stop wasting time with health (drug) related issues.
I feel sorry for the cops, having their lives endangered by the ignorance of those above them, but they signed up....the dog didn't.
Giving guns to the cops will ensure the 'criminals' need to carry guns themselves. If I was a cop I would be very worried about this.

 
At 14/7/10 9:30 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blogger. Once again you have assumed a great deal and hyped up an everyday situation to suit your militant rhetoric. In this instance two, read that two, police officers made a door knock, spoke to the occupants and entered the house having reasonable grounds to believe there was inside evidence of illegal activity -- as they are legally entitled to do under statute and morally required to do under their police oath.

Police do not "ambush" or "storm" a house with two officers as you seem to believe thehy were doing.

Everyday police make enquiries at and in the houses of citizens. There is no reason for an occupier of these houses to present or use firearms against police. The police present no physical threat. They are presenting firearms because they know there is evidence if illegal activity in the house.

In this instance, had the officers been in possession of firearms, the offender would most likely have been wounded instead of the two officers and the police dog and his neighbours not put in jeopardy by his actions.

A sensible and not political agenda from you would be refreshing.

 
At 14/7/10 10:03 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not defending this clown who has shot two officers and their dog, but if the Police are going to aggressively start invading peoples homes based on something as petty as bloody marijuana, these reactions are what the Police are going to get back.

Actually you are defending these clowns by stating that pulling a gun on police is a natural response.

If the police burst into my house?
I would naturally comply, and sort out the issue peacefully.
I wouldn't pull out a gun and start shooting them, especially if I was growing dope.

The Police lesson here is that bursting into people's homes might get you shot, so, you need to be selective about whose homes you will burst into

Wtf??
That is a Hadenesque "raid houses at your peril, pig" sort of statement.

Oh, and bomber, what proof do you have that the police went in aggressively?
I have read no such statement, just the fact that the police smelt cannabis, and executed a search warrant.
Last time I looked, cannabis is illegal, and police have the right to search your premises if they smell it.
(btw: the would have smelt GROWING cannabis, not BURNING cannabis).

If you have proof that the police were aggressive, please post it, otherwise it looks like you are making up facts to suit your agenda.

The pattern that is emerging is that dope growers are now armed, and willing to shoot, so therefore police are now going to go into situations involving cannabis armed to the teeth.

Btw; please don't call me a cop/anontroll/etc...just stick to the argument.

 
At 14/7/10 10:12 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sniff.. Sniff..
I smell weed. ..with hints of cinnamon and subtle Oak and leather notes..
Who needs Police dogs when our officers senses are so highly tuned.
Takes cops being Nosey to a whole new level doesnt it.
Stay downwind of these guys.

A National and potentially deadly incident on account of a smell.
Wonderful
Just wonderful.
More.
Please more.

 
At 14/7/10 10:57 am, Anonymous Dex said...

Bomber where do you get your information from? I'm curious given that you seem to have a whole lot of different information than that which the general news media has.

"The Police in this case just randomly burst into the home of a person based on smelling marijuana"

Now you state that they just randomly burst into the home of a person? the implication of course being that such an invasive and aggresive approach of course triggered such a response. I can't find any news or witness report stating this?

"after they couldn't catch the person they were looking for with a search warrant."

A search warrant? where do you get this information from Bomber. The information released by the mainstream media is that they were investigating a reported incident in which a pych patient was threatening another person.

I'm just wondering how you can present such an utterly biased pile of misinformation while expecting anyone to take whatever you say seriously. I mean please storming the house, where and how do you come up with this stuff?

 
At 14/7/10 11:39 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh right, it was the cops fault they got shot. Thanks for clarifying that.

 
At 14/7/10 11:39 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But Bomber, You have to bum rush into the evil stoner houses to give us the "safer communities" because in that house, they are bound to be planning evil, we may have been minutes away from these guys over throwing the goverment!(well, being stoners, they where gonna do it, just anit got around to it yet)

HDS

 
At 14/7/10 12:00 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So on this basis if someone decides to violate and vandelise my property by say tagging it them its to be expected and justified that my reaction would be to grab a knife and stab them to death in the street?

Obviously these taggers should choose their fences more carefully since this is the type of reaction they'll get from back from people.

 
At 14/7/10 1:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So many police fan boys.

Bomber is right, more guns is not the answer. People have the right to self defense against people bursting into their home wanting to violently drag them off, put them in a cage and take away their medicine.

"They can take my medicine from my cold dead hands" is becoming a more and more popular attitude. There's almost nothing some people wouldn't do to protect themselves and their family, and when they have money it can get pretty sophisticated. If the police want to be the aggressor they will need more than guns and body armor if they want to stay safe.

All getting more guns does is announce to the people they are after that they better upgrade their armory too.

 
At 14/7/10 3:12 pm, Anonymous fatty said...

Dex.

Your point of view is as one sided as any other. Not sure if you live your life taking Herald / TV1 / TV3 6pm news as gospel, but sorry to tell you, NZs news is far from the truth. Especially when the police are involved.

As for the "search warrant' - I dunno... A search warrant vs a call out to a pysc patient, I'd call that a typo/mistake....not "an utterly biased pile of misinformation"

As for using the terms "randomly burst" and "storming the house" I'd say thats accurate.
Have you seen cops entering a house when they get a sniff of something illegal? Do you think they politely requested a look around the house? No...they would have charged in there like hungry pigs to the trough.

Maybe I am the stupid one?
Is it common sense to give cops more guns so they can out-arm the criminals to try to stop people smoking a weed that grows anywhere?
Is this the answer?
What the fuck was the question.

I'm not a cop hater, I feel sorry for them, we make their job so dangerous. Its because of our laws and social policies, which we refuse to correct....and the best solution we can come up with is to give them more guns?

 
At 14/7/10 4:11 pm, Blogger Rangi said...

Yeah, it was the cops fault they got shot.

Those men weren't hurting anyone by smoking some ganja in their house.

 
At 14/7/10 4:25 pm, Anonymous Dex said...

"I dunno... A search warrant vs a call out to a pysc patient, I'd call that a typo/mistake."

It's not a typo or a mistake, its Bomber making stuff up to make it appear that the Police were already in the area harrassing other poor citizens with search warrants and after failing in that decided to harrass this innocent pair druggies.


"Have you seen cops entering a house when they get a sniff of something illegal"

They routinely knock on the door, introduce themselves and explain why they are there and give the occupants a copy of the search warrant. I don't see why this search under the MODA would be any different and certainly if they had stormed the house how on earth did this guy manage to get to his guns, load them and fire them before one of these 3 cops was onto him?

Its amazing that so many people on here are justifying the shooting like Tim saying that the 'pigs' deserved it. No-one deserves to be shot merely for doing the job we society employ them to do. It's a democracy, the majority of people don't want weed legalised and thats something you have to live with. And lets face it the cops here are ridiculously leniant unless someone is doing it so utterly blatantly as these people were.

The two involved in the shooting were just drug dealers, if we legalised cannabis they would simply sell other drugs to finance their lifestyle. Trying to portray them as Dakta Greeneqsue figures is just ridiculous and does those trying to achieve cannabis reform a huge disservice.

 
At 14/7/10 6:37 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Those men weren't hurting anyone by smoking some ganja in their house."

Neither are people who download child pornography in the privacy of their own home. Should society let them do what they want?

 
At 14/7/10 6:59 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Cannabis debate aside, you totally shot yourself in the foot with your argument.

Armed Police raid houses everyday and they don't get shot at... because the offenders have guns pointed at them, and because they are primarily armed to defend themselves against other criminals, not the police.

 
At 14/7/10 8:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So Dex, you are saying that the Nazi Jew hunters didn't deserve to be shot for doing the immoral job society employ them to do?

Don't watch Inglourious Basterds if that's the case, especially the Bear Jew scene. And yes I'm comparing those that want to put people in cages for their choice of medicine to those that wanted to put people in concentration camps for being Jewish.

Those dirty Nazis deserve every bullet to the face they get if they want to antagonize the innocent public.

 
At 14/7/10 8:39 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dex.

Lol your ignorance is showing. If we legalised cannabis those drug dealers would suddenly find themselves without an income, not the other way around. Nobody wants to pay $300 an ounce for something that they can grow in their backyard. Many gangs also rely on this income.

And the "majority" can kiss my ass if they want to tell me how to live my life. I'll follow my own moral code.

 
At 14/7/10 11:31 pm, Anonymous ThE LiSp said...

1-The cops wre going to see a Mental Health consumer right?

Why were dogs there in first place?

Why wasnt the persons MH nurse npt present?

The cops know there is a element of risk so why wasnt the nurse present??

As for the actual shooting I feel for the people shot and esp the dog

But arming our police force who
1- cant drive - how many people have they killed as a result of this?? Inoocent bystanders


CAnt use a tazer-Tazer use requires weekly training and now the so called majority ( hha yeah right tui ad time) are crying out to arm them??

Campbell( what a complete fucking twat) remarked on tv there is millon firearms in our country

hah idiot- theres alot more

No do not arm them-they cant even get basic driving skills right so how the hell can they trusted with firearms?

Train them better and actually get the cops to find murderers rapists etc etc and leave the pot smokers alone

 
At 15/7/10 7:48 am, Blogger Bomber said...

Actually you are defending these clowns by stating that pulling a gun on police is a natural response.
No I'm not, that's your usual bullshit interpretation of everything I write anontrollgos.

Armed Police raid houses everyday and they don't get shot at... because the offenders have guns pointed at them, and because they are primarily armed to defend themselves against other criminals, not the police.
Trained Armed Police who have a very specific focus and enter with weapons raised is a very different situation to two bored cops who can't find who they were looking for bursting into a house because they could smell pot. Random warrentless search Policing is something we should be doing everything we can to prevent.

Neither are people who download child pornography in the privacy of their own home. Should society let them do what they want?
You are comparing smoking pot to child porn????????????????????????????

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

I'm just wondering how you can present such an utterly biased pile of misinformation
Dex is right, I assumed the Police had a search warrant, why wander aimlessly around if it wasn't specific, but I was wrong, the cops were just wandering around they had no search warrant at all. Bored cops make fun for no one.

We want a Police force that stick to the containment philosophy and do not raid peoples homes unprepared without warrants. I do not believe more guns are the answer to this situation and allowing the Police Association to use this event to push for arming more Police is something that should be challenged.

 
At 15/7/10 12:16 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Certainly shows the dangers of cannabis induced pychosis and the paranoid and delusional thinking it creates admist heavy users.

Goes to show why it should never be legalised and needs to be stamped out, given the murderous rampages it causes as evidenced here and in Napier.

 
At 15/7/10 3:26 pm, Anonymous fatty said...

"Those men weren't hurting anyone by smoking some ganja in their house."

"Neither are people who download child pornography in the privacy of their own home. Should society let them do what they want?"

WTF is this logic?

Weed and kiddie porn are equatable as they are both victim-less?...I'd always assumed watching children being raped was wrong.

 
At 15/7/10 7:04 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Watching kiddie porn harms children because it creates a demand.

Smoking some herb is victimless. In-fact, typical users of cannabis cause far less problems in society than typical binge drinkers.

 
At 16/7/10 9:39 am, Anonymous Tobez said...

And yet how many binge drinkers go on shooting rampages trying to murder innocent people like this guy and molenar did?

Cannabis induced mental health problems cost this country millions.

 
At 16/7/10 2:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

True, I use to smoke made amounts of weed with my friends but had to stop due to uni and work committments but they did not.

Some are ok but the majority are just fucking dropkicks and munters with no drive or motivation. Makes me sad to see them go that way but everyone has to make their own decision.

But in saying that there is no way in hell I'd ever want my children to smoke weed. Who wants to see potentially their children's lives go to waste?

 
At 16/7/10 3:08 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lol Tobez,

Are you unaware what occurred during alcohol prohibition? Far more violence and shootings.

Alcohol makes people violent, you never see a stoned guy get into a fight.

 
At 16/7/10 3:24 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

well said tobez

 
At 2/8/10 10:41 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is well know that smoking cannibus is linked to many mental disorders such as bi-polar and schizophrenia.

As for the arming of Police, I believe Police should carry firearms and tasers when entering a house for a search or MODA searches, however, fulltime arming is not feasable because the police are not well trained in the use of firearms.

 

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