Politicians, bloggers and the Christian conservative right.
Phil Goff boring. This boring:
In the grey fibre of the electronic media there is no description for Phil Goff. David Farrar thinks he is boring too, only he takes a few hundred more words to say it (and several hundred more salivating at the end of John Key's performance). They were all at the same bash.Lording it up with the God-thrashers at their fundyfest. A Judeo-Christian cluster-fart.
What a shame the PM and the Leader of the Opposition feel they need to patronise and therefore encourage and promote and endorse their agenda - that is what they do when they address these meetings. Farrar on the other hand is so deeply in bed with them it could be the only chance he ever gets of being described as a hotty.
[UPDATE-- Tuesday: A review from an attendee --UPDATE ENDS]
posted by Tim Selwyn @ 1:24 pm
10 comments
10 Comments:
Heaven forbid the politicians equally share their time with all citizens and respect their choice to adopt any viewpoint they like.
I was at the Forum on the Family and you have described it incorrectly but then you were not there so what would you know - explains the judgmental stereotyping I guess.
"Lording it up with the God-thrashers at their fundyfest. A Judeo-Christian cluster-fart."
Nice bigotry Tim! What offends you the most; a tory PM going to a tory get together, or a bunch of Christians being allowed to get together? (quick, send in the liberal secular Gestapo!)
I wasn't at this event, but I have no beef with John Key grovelling to them, while telling them they have no-one but him to vote for.
And your claim that by attending, Goff & Key "patronise and therefore encourage and promote and endorse their [Family First] agenda" is laughably ridiculuous. Politicians get invited to talk at all kind of events, and go to try swing voters to their parties.
Secret talks with the Exclusive Brethren on tandem election campaigning is a REAL conspiracy; this rant by you is just feeble bigotry.
Family Fist
If these people are 'proud' christians why do they hide under other titles.
CCF used to be, more honestly, called Christian Children’s Fund. World Vision hides its christian agenda in the small print.
Family First and similar names, are not about family first they are about christian first.
There are many types of families many of whom would not be accepted by christian 'Family' organisation, and also many people who have no family, they are totally ignored and forgotten, if you have no family you are a non-person to them, I find that offensive, cruel and insensitive.
If you want to be a christian, muslim, jewish, gay, vegan .... or any other sort of organisation …. go for it, but be honest and open. As far as I can see most organisations that represent a particular group or point of view are open about it, its seems to be the christians who have the problem with honesty.
Lying by omission, or misleading people, is still lying.
Recently a woman called at my door collecting (soliciting) for the salvation army, I told her I did not give money to religious organisations, she looked at me in total disbelief, ‘do you call the salvation army religious’, ‘yes’ I said, she could not believe it, maybe she was just thick but I suspect many people are as ‘informed’ as her.
I also think many people have allowed themselves to be fooled into thinking these groups are there just to ‘help people’, no they are not, they are their to promote their beliefs, make money and buy their way into heaven.
The SA (and others) have also been successful in keeping the widespread corruption in their ranks quiet, or maybe people just don’t want to know. I didn’t ask the collector if she could guarantee none of the money she collected would go towards paying out sexual abuse claims. \
I suspect these groups have got away with misrepresenting themselves because people are lazy, easy to bung a fiver into a bucket and get a quick feel good fix, checking what the money is used for takes work and effort.
Any chance of a stray cluster bomb to blow these fuckers up?
That'd solve 90% of NZs problems in one go.
Madeleine : "Heaven forbid the politicians equally share their time with all citizens and respect their choice to adopt any viewpoint they like."
&
Anon 7:37PM: "Politicians get invited to talk at all kind of events, and go to try swing voters to their parties. "
- Why would a politician go to a meeting of the conservative Christian right at all? This is a group that isn't going to have their belief system changed, so it cannot be to persuade them they are mistaken in their line of thinking/policy direction - so why are they going? It's not for a lecture on twitter by David Farrar is it.
The politicians are attending to get votes or money. The only way to get them to part with their money or deliver votes is to appease them in some way. Phil Goff's goofy gap-toothed smile isn't going to do that is it. They are already conceding policy when they accept the invitation.
Sure, it's a politicians right to speak to whomever they choose; but in this case they are addressing a political rally whose cause is religion. For a secular society that is unwelcome.
Tim,
1) People change their religious beilefs all the time. How else do you think the Christian faith went from 0 to over a billion in under 200 years? But no, of course politicians don't go to meetings to change the religious views of those attending, they go for the votes, on which point we agree.
But you allege MPs are "conceding policy when they accept the invitation". Nonsense! What policy did Key or Goff concede? Nothing I heard of. In particular, Key reiterated his S59 position, which would be vastly unpopular with that audience especially.
2) Why is it that MP's "addressing a political rally whose cause is religion" which "For a secular society is unwelcome" - WHY?
Did you complain when churches lobbied MP's to support Bradford's S59? No. Do you complain when religions lobby Parliament to address social inequality and injustice? No. Did you rave against Catholic Worker activists (including a priest, dammit!) who deflated the Waihopai spys supporting the US war machine? NO!
Your whole argument appears to be - 'I don't like this group's opinions, so I don't think MP's should talk or listen to them.' Which is close to the definition of bigotry, aye?
Tim wrote: "Why would a politician go to a meeting of the conservative Christian right at all? This is a group that isn't going to have their belief system changed, so it cannot be to persuade them they are mistaken in their line of thinking/policy direction"
So is it your position that it is the job of politicians to make like Aunty Helen and try to eradicate religious beliefs from society?!? Unless they think they have a shot at changing the belief system of the christians they are speaking to they should not turn up?
Unbelievable - and your comments are so messed up.
Goff and Key came to speak to an audience concerned with family issues in society. While there were a large number of christians present there was also a large number of non-christians present - not that that is is in any way relevant beyond a useful means of pointing out a factual flaw in the statements made above.
Within the individuals present there were a range of views on family issues - from pro and anti the families commissions' existence and of those pro, what it should or should not be doing. From what the best approach to tackling family violence is, which strategies are more effective and so on.
So sure, Goff and Key probably failed in their "mission" (according to you) to evangelise those christians present to give up their faith and embrace secularism but as to the other issues, the ones actually being discussed, they may not have. In the room were people who vote accross the political spectrum - I am a well known right of centre blogger but Dave Crampton well known left of centre blogger was also there.
Topics Goff and Key spoke on were welfare, boot camps, youth programs, education, funding, community groups and the vision of each of their parties. While of course most community/politically active people in society are fairly clear on where they stand politically, I am sure you are no exception, it didn't mean we did not listen. John Key changed my mind at that talk on something or at least caused me to soften my stance on it and I am no fan of Key's. I also came away somewhat impressed with Goff as a person as well.
Perhaps if you started listening and thinking and considering your opponents as people you would have less of a one eyed appreciation of what they're about. Have you never found that when you sit down with someone with radically different views to your own you can have a laugh over a beer with them and find some things in common? If you have not you are sad.
What I am taking from your comments is that if you had to be in the same room as a conservative Christian like myself you wouldn't be able to relax and you'd frothing a the mouth or something - which is a shame because you and I agree on a few things. I hate the Foreshore and Seabed Act and have railed against it and written critiques on my blog of both Labour and National's handling of it. If you could get over your bigotry you could work with Christians on that issue.
I agree with you Tim. Our politicians have no business attending this kind of thing. Family Fist and... Madeline almost make me ashamed of having faith, until I realize that they will get their just deserts in good time.
The amusing anonymous person who criticised groups for hiding their true identity says: "if you have no family you are a non-person to them"
Oh really? Guess what that claim makes you? You told us yourself:
"Lying by omission, or misleading people, is still lying."
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