Reflections on a siege
Hmmm, a couple of thoughts on the Napier siege - how disgusting was it that this was all over weed? 2 dead, 3 seriously injured a city held to ransom all to police a stupid pointless law for a 'drug' that kills thousands fewer than booze or ciggies, prohibition is a total waste of time, thank God Arnie has seen sense and intends to re-look at prohibition in California - the audacity of dope, let's continue to hope.
The second thing, and much more important is that LAV - did my eyes deceive me folks, did I or did I not see that LAV return fire? Was martial law declared folks? Has a new precedent been set? At the whim of the Government we will now allow the military, the NZ military who are NOT allowed to be used against the civilian population of NZ, to use tanks against criminals? We have the Police, the AOS - they deal with the situation, NOT the military, how is it that the nations entire media were there watching and not one, NOT ONE asked who allowed the military to open fire in a civilian issue? Incredible - where the hell was their journalistic curiosity, the military can't be used against civilians, but here we had the LAV returning fire, now it MAY be that from the angle John Campbell filmed it, there was an armed offenders squad member on top of the tank behind the turret firing, but it sure as hell didn't look like that. Why hasn't ANYONE in the media asked that question, I'm sorry but a roid rage gun nut IS NOT a good enough reason to throw out set principles that do not allow the military to be used against civilians, because it'll take someone like that awful Michael Laws to start demanding the LAV's smash down Gang houses - this is a very dangerous precedent to start adopting, watching the media silent on this issue is dumbfounding.
posted by Bomber @ 9:31 am
35 comments
35 Comments:
It wasn't over weed Bomber, they could have gone round to seize his illegal firearms, gone around to seize his dogs, impounded his car etc, the response would have been the same.
He had a huge grudge, he had extreme anger and he sounds like the type of person just waiting for this moment. Its beyond the realms of logic to even attempt to make this a prohibition issue.
The lav wouldn't have fired at the house, which is why no-one is mentioning it.
I can't imagine in how many other Police forces you would see such restraint and lack of force used in such an incident.
Yes, your eyes deceived you. The LAV did not return fire.
Look forward to reading your apology.
Bomber this wasn't about dope.
It was about a drug fuelled psychopath thinkin he was a real tough guy- until he shat himself seconds after he chickened out on his ultimate machotrip.
Show some respect- our Police & Defence Force- they handled this one real well-choked the punk down before he could harm any more innocents.
As for the LAV's smashin down gang houses- I'd pay per view to see that one- have you considered workng for SKY in promos?
It certainly is 'crazy' that so much blood was spilt and disruption caused over a drug/plant that is safer and 'softer' than booze .......
I dont have much sympathy for the police though ............. they are one of the obstacles who repeatedly block any moves to decriminalize cannabis and its users.
......... apparently the cannabis laws are very very convenient for the police to force their way in and gain entry to places where they would otherwise not be able to get in.
The anger and resentment that the police cause by their ABUSE of our childish drug laws came to a head in Napier .............
One man acted on the anger and rage that having your house invaded and rights abused by a bunch of uniformed boot boys.
If they were in his house, turning the place upside down and hasseling his Mrs over cannabis then they were the ones acting like criminals ........
The police support and abuse our cannabis laws. Its one of the reasons they are disliked by a large and growing sector of society.
If the police would like to intergrate and be appreciated by society then they should concentrate on REAL CRIMES where there is a real victim.
Drug abuse is a HEALTH ISSUE and should be treated as such.
There was actually a comment on NZ herald asking why they hadnt used one sooner. The rules behind using the military are not as clear as you have stated. They can be called in to assist in situations like this where the armed person is a little more sensed up than your normal idiot with a gun. They are under control of the police officer and can only operate as they say.
Demanding the police potentially sacrifice more life where bringing in hardware makes more sense shows how one eyed you can be Bomber at times. Yes it should be a last resort, but this situation warranted it, they guy was armed with a high calibre rifle at close range which could pierce military body armour, and the police bullet proof vests would not offer shit all protection.
Further using this story on your whole weed rant does not further your case. Yes the whole thing is bizzare, but can I point out on the harm index Weed is up there with Tabacco, there are many other drugs which cause less harm and are illegal as well (i.e. E). Personally think the whole thing is fucking stupid, but at hte same time the guy was one of those wanna be angry rambo men wanting there own little castle and when he got annoyed he shot some people doing their jobs.
The second thing, and much more important is that LAV - did my eyes deceive me folks, did I or did I not see that LAV return fire?On reviewing the 3 News tape, six or seven flashes are seen in the area of the offender's house, then one flash is seen from the turret area of the LAV.
The LAV does not appear to use its own armament, and considering the range and destructive capabilities the main armament of LAV, I'm not suprised. The vehicle is in effect being used by the police as a mobile bunker.
What is probably shown in the footage is an unknown person on the LAV returning fire, Now wether that was an AOS officer or other persons, I can't answer.
I'm sure you are right and Michael Laws is having LAV-smashing-gangs wet dreams. Maybe the answer is to equip the AOS with a couple, thus removing the need for the Army to get involved...
Let's be realistic here.
Regardless of liberal niceties, if we examine the history of militaries, their first purpose has always been to be used against the inhabitants of their own country, to defend against civil disturbance.
Right now the vast majority of wars being fought in the world are between armies and some segment of their own population, not against the armed forces of a foreign state.
The idea that the military attacking the occupants of the state that supports the military is somehow unprecedented is sadly naive.
This wasn't about dope!
If it wasn't dope it would have been his arsenal of illegal weapons.
We need to registar all ammunition (bar codes work) and weapons. From this we can see who is on selling to unlicenced gun nuts like Jan.
It is pretty clear he had mental health issues.
As for the LAV, they had it, it worked and is not a normal part of policing but sensible (and I'm sure it had Ministerial sign off) to keep safe all forces and civilians while a nutter was shooting from the hip.
The Police have clearly stated they shot twice and early on in the piece. I would be interested to see if it was from the LAV but I doubt it.
Sorry, let me be clear about the LAV, I don#t think it was the large gun that opened up, I am pretty sure it was an automatic gun ON the LAV that opened up, there wouldn't have been much left of the house if they had started shelling it - so did the LAV open up with automatic fire or not, I#ve watched the clip over and over, and am prepared to accept that someone behind the Turret fired, but I haven't heard anyone claim that's what happened, it looks, and again I'm happy to be wrong about this, but from the clip on TV 3 shot by John Campbells people the LAV's automatic gun machine gun does open up. Folks, I'm not defending a roid rage nutbar loner shooting people and holding a city to ransom, I am making the point that the Military should NEVER be used against civilians, and to date I have yet to see proof that they didn't
Hmm, not sure what happened to my comments this morning. The server told me they were being 'moderated'.
They were in the same vein as Bosco, that the Police could have been visiting Chaucer Road to follow up on a traffic infringement.
Bomber, don't try and make this about cannabis prohibition. Where is the criticism of the gutless friends of Molenaar who knew he had an arsenal and kept it quiet? Not all of us see Tiananmen Square around every corner...
nznative:
Real crime? Real victims? How do you make this a victimless crime? A man, in response to a Police visit to his home, chose to shoot those Police officers. How would decriminalising cannabis have prevented this?
Saying that alcohol is worse than pot doesn't make pot better. It is like saying rape isn't that bad because murder is worse. Clearly this was a mental health issue (people with normal rational processes do not shoot people, Police or otherwise) and the evidence is overwhelming that people with MH issues should not use pot. Decriminalising it will not reduce the harm it does to people in this country.
Yes Bomber, prohibition on weed caused this man in engage in steroid abuse, build-up an arsenal of automatic weapons and caches of explosive.
By all accounts he was a small time dealer and the small time dealers I know wouldn't do this because they're not steroid crazed nutjobs.
Clearly your logic is faulty.
Piss off Luke, you little dickhead.
This guy barricaded himself in his house, the only threat he was to, was himself.What about the one dead cop, two seriously wounded cops and one seriously wounded civilians? No harm done there right?
They shut down whole streets because there was a fucking nutter with at least one high powered rifle, with the advantage of high ground, randomly firing into neighbouring properties.
The standard pig hunting gun - a .303 or .308 - can kill from well over 2 km away, and this guy was firing into neighboring houses - if you had watched the news last night you would have seen the damage done to the surrounding houses. The carnage could easily have been bigger.
Leave your anti terrorist law bollocks for another day, preferable one where there hasn't been someone killed or wounded by a gun weilding psycho.
look, the army guy had watched a bit to much of saving private ryan, got rounds popped off at him and just opened up without thinking about it and possible got a lucky shot in and that was that!
i dont think anything devious happened
"Okay what gets me is this guy was trained in the army, but he was no Rambo"
According to neighbors and friends he use to carry his brother up breakneck road (step) on his back for exercise and obviously had weapons and explosives while engaging in steroid crazed weightlifting workouts. How does it NOT make him Rambo?
"One man acted on the anger and rage that having your house invaded and rights abused by a bunch of uniformed boot boys."
So what's that NZnutjob, the rightous anger and rage of a survivalist psycho on roid rage?
Where in the Bill of Rights Act does it protect your right to sell weed and keep automatic weapons?
For those claiming that it isn't about weed don't seem to have paid any attention to why the Police were there in the first place
YES OR NO DICKHEADS
were the Police there serving a drug search warrent for weed?
Yes
Thank-you Bomber for having the guts to say what many people out here think. Last week I listened to Leighton Smith carping on about how cops need more guns. Yeah Leighton- that's NZ needs- our jumped up police force armed with guns.
For those claiming that it isn't about weed don't seem to have paid any attention to why the Police were there in the first place
YES OR NO DICKHEADS
were the Police there serving a drug search warrent for weed?
Yes This man going nuts was as much to do about weed as the War in Iraq was about bringing democracy and freedom to it's citizens.
The police went to this mans house to execute a search warrant for drugs?
Yes.
Did they go there with the intention of participating in a three day seige with one policeman dead?
Of course not.
Tell you what dickhead, answer these two:
Is it legal to grow cannabis for supply in NZ?
Is it legal to possess unlicensed automatic weapons?
No?
Then I guess the onus of responsiblity for all this shit lies squarely on the gunman.
$700-800 MILLION?
MONEY WELL SPENT!
THANX PHIL GOFF MATE, NICE ONE STU...
aussie blonde kate lynch lied on t.v 3 sayin that the shots comin out of the house were stun grenades or tear gas fired at the house, pure b.s.
I actually should have written "One man acted on the anger and rage that having your house invaded and rights abused by a bunch of uniformed boot boys CAN CAUSE.
I say this because I have been told by several people that having the pigs tear up and trash your place ( like they do during a search ) has caused them to feel this way.
Now most people dont 'flash react' as the victim of the police search warrent did in Napier. But dont mistake a non-violent reaction from victims of 'drug policeing' for a lack of anger.
............. you only have to get a semi large group of drunken youths to see and feel the resentment that the police have generated towards themselves.
The old guard of the police lost the battle against cannabis long ago but our police force still arrestt's and persecute's cannabis users at the highest rates in the western world.
Tough luck for them that this 'routine' cannabis bust wrecked and ended a few of their lives instead of the boot always being on their foot.
p.s the idea for a weapons register is the stuff a 5 year old would come up with .
Who is going to register their illegal weapons???????????????????
Once you start firing at the police and the public you really are giving up your civilian card.
I think you will find that the AOS/STG/Paramedics are very grateful for the assistance of the army. It was one of the LAVS that was used to retrieve the body of the slain officer and teargas was used at this point. What you are seeing Bomber is more likely to be tear-gas and not arms fire.
The Police have conducted themselves in an exemplary fashion on this one.
YES OR NO
were the cops there to serve a warrent to search for cannibus?
YES OR NO?
its so much fun to be on the 'right' side of the law-hence narcs love doing it. thats why raiding someones fu until something like this happens and then its all shock horror someone got mad having this happen to them!
So have we had any actual definitive answer as to whether or not the Police opened fire or was it the military? The footage certainly looks like it came from the LAV
The footage i saw seemed to indicate that the fire came from the vicinity of the house, and the LAv was actually struck by some of the incoming rounds.
What you haven't talked about Bomber, is the way John Campbell reported a rumour that the gunman was dead from a self-inflicted gunshot. Will JC offer a retraction or apology for going ahead with a rumour given that the police (who I presume had a much better idea what was going on compared to a journalist at a cordon) stated that they thought he was still alive? There own news had to correct Campbell's comments later in the night. Will the 3News website retract and apologise for saying on Thursday that a second policeman was dead?
"the Military should NEVER be used against civilians, and to date I have yet to see proof that they didn't"
Bomber, lets not deal with the word 'should'.
The use of the Military is either legal or it is not. To be legal requires Ministerial sign off. If that was done this then becomes lawful use of military resources. That is the use of the LAV. The use of the 50cal is illegal except in case of war.
To extend on your arguement of 'should' would require our Representative Democracy to pass a law against it and allow for no contingency (as we have and I'm sure was done in this situation).
So Bomber tighten up your arguement beyond what 'should' happen and deal with the reality of what is legal or not. It seems pretty clear the Police actions and Army support were legal and I bet even the Green Party will back them.
So Anon you are saying that this was signed off? And the NZ Army is not allowed to be used against the civilian population unless martial law is passed
Yes & no.
Yes the involvement of the NZDF needs oversight and so the Ministers (or their defactos) involved need to have signed it off.
No this doesn't require the declaration of martial law, but management of this specific situation.
Hey Anonymous (11?05 - 12:08 am) Looks like John Campbell was right. Cops now say he committed sucide on Friday afternoon - just as Campbell reported. I think the point of the coverage on Campbell on Friday was that Campbell wasn't at the cordon. He seems to have spent the day above the gunmans house. That seems clear from the story Bomber has linked to.
"One man acted on the anger and rage that having your house invaded and rights abused by a bunch of uniformed boot boys CAN CAUSE."
FFS native why don't you take you complaint about being brutalised by 'da pigs' to a lawyer instead of pouring out you drivel here. Obviously you have emotional issues about the event that demand professional help.
Bomber,
I have a lot of respect for you man, but I'm afraid you've missed the mark on this one. The military can be used in a law enforcement capacity as long as the Prime Minister signs off on it. New Zealand has a pretty flexible constitution, great for situations like this.
No it seems there is a clause where the police can call for Army support for something they can't do themselves. The use of the LAV being that, just like the bomb robot is used.
They can't shoot at us as the cops have their Bushmasters (M16 variants) for that.
And it seems his licence expired along with his collectors licence, which allowed him to hord his bloody booty. The police never followed this up (it would seem).
Next reality TV show - "When Lax Administration Kills"
Dear Anon @2.43, Campbell was nowhere near the site. Phil, his cameraman, had managed to get inside to a point about 400 meters from the scene. Campbell said the gunman had committed suicide a full 17 hours before police entered the Chaucer Road property. You might safely presume that the police had a better idea what was going on than a journalist at a cordon. 3News had to retract Campbell's comments later that Friday night on their website and on Nightline.. If your own channel disowns your comments, then I think you would have to agree Campbell went too far in his search for an exclusive over his competitors.
Aaaaawwwww squeek squeek anony mouse …………..
Did you take offence at my point ……”"One man acted on the anger and rage that having your house invaded and rights abused by a bunch of uniformed boot boys CAN CAUSE”
Gee I’m so sad that that fact made YOU angry.
Maybe YOU need some counseling.
Jan defiantly needed some.
But anyway I stand by my point that having the pigs invade your home can make some people enraged ………………
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