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Tuesday, February 17, 2009

$35 million raw meat for the howling electorate publicity campaign

Army to run teens' boot camps
The army will run boot camps to keep the worst teenage offenders on the straight and narrow under youth justice provisions to go before Parliament tomorrow. Forty of the most serious repeat offenders each year will undergo three months' military training as part of 18 months' intensive supervision under the plans. Social Development Minister Paula Bennett said the boot camps would follow six-month residential programmes and be followed by a further nine months' supervision.

$35million for a programme that no academic literature backs up – what a waste of $35million when we are desperate for every cent we can get! BOOT CAMPS DON’T WORK, it’s as simple as that, but in a country were youth are either vilified as boy racers, taggers or yuff gang members, the thirst to see them suffer and get a boot up the arse is so strong that nACTional are willing to throw raw meat policy to the electorate even when they know it won’t do a bloody thing.

What a waste of time and effort just to feed the baying dogs of the red-necked right.


At 17/2/09 8:18 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great idea. Lets brutalise the already brutalised some more! Good idea Jonkey!

At 17/2/09 8:48 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish I had done something like this when I was younger. There seems to be evidence that similar programmes are working, and I think its a good idea.

Many young people have become alienated from society, lost respect for themselves and others, may be petty criminals, and lack hope for the future. If there is a programme which can teach them discipline, hard work, team work, respect, then thats a good thing.

For the same reason I am a big fan of getting young people involved in team sports. The values that are learned are life values, and I think so incredibly important

At 17/2/09 9:15 am, Blogger Bomber said...

Oh come on Scott - boot camps don't work, please back up your claim they do against the mountain of evidence that show they do not.

At 17/2/09 9:34 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What if its structed in the way that say, Outward Bound is set up. Plenty of evidence that that programme works.

DPF quotes the herald

Since the programme’s inception seven years ago, there has been a 58 per cent reduction in total offending from graduates and a 71 per cent drop in serious crimes. Mr Boxer says the military component is only a foundation for ongoing development of individuals.

At 17/2/09 10:17 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A few points :

Not ALL youth are vilified as taggers , boyracers etc , only those who ARE.

Personally I think this is a crap idea and a sop to the lynch mob running this country via talkback, more to the point its been PROVEN to be a bad idea.

I have a friend, now in his 60's who was sent to borstal as a lad, reckons it was the best thing that could have happened to him.

I also have an uncle sent to Borstal as a lad who carried on with a life of crime until he died. Sadly for him , he had a shit start, banged up in an orphanage and abused by Catholic pedophile "priests" for his formative years.

I think home life plays a much bigger part in how we turn out and we're on a thundering juggernaut now as far as dysfunction / violence ( in homes/tv/movies/music/games) and generational unemployment goes .
Personally I think we're too late.
And we're getting out of the city we live in and moving FAR FAR away - here's a rundown of what has happened to our family ( extended )in the past 4 years :

Nephew beaten to a pulp ( kicked and stomped into unconsciousness) when he told a group of 3 thugs who asked him for a lighter that he didn't smoke ( Colombo st - walking home from work )Broken jaw, lost teeth, off work for months , these shits still on the loose for all I know.

Niece - beaten by a gang of 7-8 girls while sitting at bus stop near Church Corner ( she couldn't translate a Maori phrase written on a poster on the bus stop wall so that set upon her )

Brother : Burgled 4 times ( twice in one day )

Son # 1 - Attacked by two hoods walking home from a night's gaming , st albans - escaped with broken tooth and bruises

Son#2 Threatened when walking down Worcester Boulevard by group of youths , one pulled a knife ( what sparked it ? one of my son's group made eye contact with one of thugs group .."what're YOU staring at C*** !)Police on scene in about 30 secs - thank god.

Son #2 Threatened last Saturday night - walking past petrol station on Papanui road with a few friends - one turned head to look at group of boy racers parked there .." keep walking C*** or i'll smash ya head in "

FATHER : Grabbed from behind when returning from Toilets in square a few years ago ( my aunt, uncle and mother waiting about 40 metres away ) and a little thug demanded money .

Its too late for boot camps...its too late for family fucking therapy , its too late ...and we're getting out .

At 17/2/09 11:03 am, Blogger Bomber said...

Scott I have no problems with wilderness programs our outward bound, they do work, I have a problem with the raw meat policy of boot camps.... from the ever useful wiki...

Other countries have been closely watching the boot camp system in the US but so far have been slow to copy it, if at all. In Canada participation in boot camp programs are voluntary, so as to avoid any challenges under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms under which treatment at boot camps could be seen as an infringement on a youth's right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment and to ensure security of person. Canada started a boot camp project for non-violent juveniles with subtle but distinct differences from the American models. The first one was opened in 1997 in Ontario. Unlike in the US system it is not possible to trade or shorten a jail sentence with a significantly shorter boot camp program. Canadian boot camps do not have the time frame of 90 to 180 days and they are restricted to juveniles up to the age of 17 and not yet open for female offenders. The judges do not directly possess the authority to send a youth to a boot camp. They may impose a sentence of secure or open custody. The latter is defined as, "a community residential center, group home, child care institution or forest or wilderness camp . . .". Once an open custody sentence is granted, a correctional official decides whether a sentence is served in a boot camp program. But the ultimate decision rests with the young person and the decision is made purely on the merits of the program because the time served remains the same.
The Canadian system is too young to show any comparable results but research has been done among US boot camps with different emphases, e. g. more on drug treatment or education than solely on military drill. According to the findings treatment has a slightly positive impact on the reduction of recidivism over strict discipline.
However, altogether there are no research findings in favor of boot camps in light of any of the initial intentions. Recidivism rates in the US among former prison inmates and boot camp participants are roughly the same. Yet, the effects of boot camps are controversially disputed, some surveys claiming lower re-offence rates, others showing no change as compared to persons serving normal time. Surveys also show different results concerning the reduction of costs. Critics add, that the emphasis on authority can only result in frustration, resentment, anger, short temper, a low self-esteem and aggression rather than respect. According to a report in the New York Times there have been 30 known deaths of youths in US boot camps since 1980.

At 17/2/09 11:07 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I joined the Army with a past Black-power member and a Skin-Head.

Both great guys, one joined rather than go to prision. The other was unemployed and thought why the f*&k not.

The key thing here is they both wanted out of where they were and the Army gave them a chance, which they took with both hands.

This doesn't require any change or new structures to be created.
Now having taken a few recruites through Basic I wouldn't be keen on taking anyone who didn't want to be there through one.

At 17/2/09 11:24 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why doesn't the government put them through Outward Bound or OPC in Turangi. These facilities are established, and work.

Having read that Bomber I am less comfortable with a boot camp approach but feel something needs to be done - the status quo isnt working. Outward Bound could be the answer

At 17/2/09 11:45 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm the anon above who posted about crimes committed against my family .
I agree that Outward Bound type programs would be a FAR better idea.

I have another reservation about "boot camps " , pretty well summed up by the picture accompanying your post.
I think some pretty weird people are attracted to running these places and we've all read about the violence, bullying and sexual abuse that has gone on in some of these 'camps'.

The Outward Bound people have been doing this for years - they're good at it, let them do it ( but would they WANT to ???)

At 17/2/09 11:49 am, Blogger Bomber said...

I joined the Army with a past Black-power member and a Skin-Head.

Both great guys, one joined rather than go to prision. The other was unemployed and thought why the f*&k not.

The key thing here is they both wanted out of where they were and the Army gave them a chance, which they took with both hands.

This doesn't require any change or new structures to be created.
Now having taken a few recruites through Basic I wouldn't be keen on taking anyone who didn't want to be there through one.

Hmmmm - VERY valid point, look the Army can be an incredible place that really brings the best out in people, I've known a lot of Army folk over the years and some started off a bit bent from the world and the process really helped them find a better path - but Christ on a bike - FORCING fucked up teenagers into a military course, which nearly every bloody academic paper I've ever read on the subject says IT DON'T WORK is just playing to the death penalty fantacists in society. Sure send them on courses that challenge them - has anyone seen 'The Outsiders' - that's pretty bloody daunting, sure make em climb stuff and run around and challenge them, look those courses have a place but it's the military aspect that doesn't work, as adults and taxpayers we should only be funding stuff that works, not stuff that makes us feel better.

At 17/2/09 12:20 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd love to go on outward bound too but I can't afford it. Maybe I'll go and bash some old lady and hopefully the govt will then stump up the cash for me!

At 17/2/09 2:52 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting example of how wrong bomber's views are.


Young teen gets sent to a 'tough love bootcamp and is about to turn her life around but is beaten to death by a member of the black power.

So Bomber why don't you tell the victims family how 'da gangs' are just a imaginary menance created by police propaganda to gice them more power and that boot camps don't work.

Frankly you liberal middle class make me sick.

At 17/2/09 3:47 pm, Blogger Bomber said...

Boot camps DON'T work, the proof clearly shows that and gangs are not the all encompassing evil the Police are using to bolster their massive push of powers, I have no where suggested gangs are benign and I've pointed out how you fight organised crime through forensic accountants to eliminate their ability to build capital.

Frankly rednecked police apologists make me sick, although my mum would find it hilarious that you consider me middle class.

At 17/2/09 5:29 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The kill rate on Outward Bound (itself) or similar programmes fail when compared to the Army course for the Limited Service Volunteers (LSVs).
Accept that when you go bush sometime someone is gonna die. The Army is just the safest provider of these types of outdoor experiences.

At 18/2/09 8:08 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Define middle class then.

You sure as hell aren't working class.

At 18/2/09 10:55 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Working class are, workers, manual labour, cleaners, miners.

Middle Class, are educated professionals.

Upper Class, inherited wealth/titled. They don't need to work in a profession.

In NZ there are few (if any) Upper Class and very little super wealthy.

There is a fluidity between working and middle class.
Michael Hill for example. A tradesmen who then created a national branded business, who still maintains this business has moved from a working class (admittedly the higher end) to an upper middle class.
That dodgey Yellow Pages ad. made it look like he capitalised from an arson of his own shop.

The thing that is so liberating of NZ is that there is some fluidity in class movement. This definately applies to the white population and too a lesser extent Maori & PI etc.

At 18/2/09 11:25 am, Blogger Bomber said...

Define middle class then.

You sure as hell aren't working class.

Im sorry Anon, you know where I was born do you, you know where I grew up and what my childhood was like do you? Aren't you jumping to a whole bunch of personal assumptions without knowing one thing about my background?

At 18/2/09 5:21 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Bomber and all you bleeding heart namby pambys. What the hell did the ( thank god they got kicked out ) Labour party do over the 9 years they were in to sort the real young troublemakers out? NOTHING BLOODY NOTHING except make the system so piss arse weak that they got away with more than they should of. I say give it a go and if it doesn't work then try something else a bit tougher. At least the Govt. are trying something.


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