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Friday, August 29, 2008

Fried Pork



Some posts on Tasers
oh well, then lets have the police carrying sidearms permanently then! For f*cks-sake a taser is a much better option then a bullet.

and

- Gunshot to the torso
- Baton to the head
- Having your groin ravaged by a police attack dog
- Being tased.


Mates, I get what you are saying, you are trying to suggest that this is the best option in a bunch of bad options right? And that sure while the Taser isn't perfect it's better than being shot, batoned, pepper sprayed or dog set upon. What I'm saying is that point misses the much large issues at stake here.

1: The process was appalling, it wasn't as Amnesty International has pointed out, "rigorous, independent or impartial", you can't implement policy that has the potential to change the very nature of Policing that we have had in NZ since our formation as a country without the process being above total scrutiny? Why are you so keen to give Police more power without the proper over sight? Why is there such a rush to erode our civil liberties? Let's hold a rigorous and independent inquest into the issue before we agree to it.

2: Tasers have the ability to dramatically change the tactics police have to apply when negotiating a conflict situation, ill trained police who only do 19 weeks training are put on the street with something they believe is 'non-lethal' and you get a culture of over use of the taser and instead of negotiating with the public, they get a mentality too readily seen in cops overseas of an arrogant tone and presence of mind that demands immediate acceptance of their authority. That potent cocktail of superiority mixed with the lowered physical requirements to be a Police Officer these days has the potential of a fleet of Napoleon complex cops with a streak bordering on the cruel. I can foresee Tasers being used is Inappropriately as pepper spray has been, I can see people being tasered while in handcuffs, and that makes me feel ill.

3: The complaints process, why would we hand over more power to the Police when we have a complaints authority that is still 70% handled by other cops, so that it is still cops investigating cops – why not wait until the complaints process is 100% independent and completely transparent, why give the Police a weapon that is open to abuse by them when we don’t yet have a 100% transparent, uncensored and independent police complaints process?

I’m not against the Police having the equipment that makes their job safer and gives them the tools necessary to do their job, but I am against self interested processes that are focused on implementation rather than examination that can lead to predictable consequences in the way the Police can treat the Public when we don’t have an independent police complaints check and balance.

Tasers bad for mental health patients - MHF
People experiencing mental illness will suffer more from the introduction of Taser stun guns into frontline policing, says the Mental Health Foundation.

It says the Taser was fired in 50 per cent of cases involving mental health emergencies, but only 11 per cent of criminal cases in its year-long trial, according to an analysis by the New Zealand College of Mental Health Nurses.

Mental Health Foundation chief executive Judi Clements said the vast majority of people with mental illness were no more likely than anyone else to commit a violent crime.

"In fact, as these figures indicate, they are more likely to be victims of violence," she said.


Taser 'a form of torture', says UN
The United Nations Convention Against Torture has linked the taser stun-gun to torture, one month before a report on the weapon is due out from the New Zealand Police.

"The use of these weapons causes acute pain, constituting a form of torture," the UN committee concluded.

The committee said studies have been carried out overseas showing the taser was dangerous and can cause death.

The comments are included in the committee's thirty-ninth report and come two weeks after unarmed Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski died in a taser related incident.

In a graphic YouTube video, Mr Dziekanski was shown to be shot by police using stun guns at an airport in Canada.

His death has sparked a review of the weapon's use in Canada.

33 Comments:

At 29/8/08 7:46 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is there such a rush to erode our civil liberties?

Just explain to me how my Civil Liberties are eroded by the Police having tasers?

 
At 29/8/08 8:14 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

100% transparent, uncensored and independent police complaints process?

And what is the Independent Police Conduct Authority (http://www.pca.govt.nz/) for?

Why is there such a rush to erode our civil liberties?

Just explain to me how my Civil Liberties are eroded by the Police having tasers?


Anon hit the nail on the head. For the majority of the population who play by the rules and think criminals get what they deserve there is no 'erosion of civil liberties' only the feeling, rightly or wrongly, the streets are a little bit safer.

Seriously, I know you've got the whole adolescent 'fuck tha police' anti-authority schtick going on, but lets face it the chance of you personally getting tasered is about as much as any other thirty something media professional (i.e. very low) and this issue isn't something that you'll ever get people worked up about in NZ.

 
At 29/8/08 8:21 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just explain to me how my Civil Liberties are eroded by the Police having tasers?
Are you serious? Being assaulted by a stun gun isn't an erosion of your civil liberties?

 
At 29/8/08 8:23 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just explain to me how my Civil Liberties are eroded by the Police having tasers?
Masochist much?

 
At 29/8/08 8:29 am, Anonymous lock and load said...

And what is the Independent Police Conduct Authority (http://www.pca.govt.nz/) for?

70% of which is still being handled by cops investigating cops.

Anon hit the nail on the head. For the majority of the population who play by the rules and think criminals get what they deserve there is no 'erosion of civil liberties' only the feeling, rightly or wrongly, the streets are a little bit safer.

Are you kidding? How does that answer any of the issues raised, the process was flawed, it has unintended consequences for an underfunded ill trained, ill check and balanced Police Force, issues you don't even touch upon.

Seriously, I know you've got the whole adolescent 'fuck tha police' anti-authority schtick going on,

Asking questions about Police power is an anti-authority schtick? I think that statement illuminates more about your thinking than his.

but lets face it the chance of you personally geting tasered is about as much as any other thirty something media professional (i.e. very low) and this issue isn't something that you'll ever get people worked up about in NZ.

Amazing, because it won't effect you, why bother? Are you serious?

 
At 29/8/08 8:31 am, Anonymous Wow said...

but lets face it the chance of you personally geting tasered is about as much as any other thirty something media professional (i.e. very low) and this issue isn't something that you'll ever get people worked up about in NZ.
Wow, you sound like a cop, only a cop could say that, it doesn't hurt you so why care? Wow.

 
At 29/8/08 8:33 am, Anonymous lol said...

Amazing, because it won't effect you, why bother? Are you serious?

He SOOOOOOOOOO means it. Yes he does, you can fully tell, because tasers won't effect you, why get hot under the collar? He really is that guy.

 
At 29/8/08 8:42 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you serious? Being assaulted by a stun gun isn't an erosion of your civil liberties?

That doesn't answer my question.
I could be run over by a police car, but that doesn't mean Police driving police cars erodes my civil liberties.

Police carry guns now, yet my civil liberties are intact.

Can someone answer the question without resorting to emotional hyperbole, or, "you must be a cop" responses?

 
At 29/8/08 8:47 am, Anonymous lock and load said...

ask anyone of the 300 who have died since its introduction in north america if their civil liberties were eroded.

I note you've backed off your latter claim of why bother?

 
At 29/8/08 8:53 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

umm, if you commit the crime and are aggressive and will not co-operate, and therefore get tasered or sprayed etc...HOW DOES THAT ERODE CIVIL LIBERTIES???!! It is that person who has eroded the civil liberties by breaking the law and acting anti-socially. enough feeling sorry for the criminal. its that sort of feeling that has us in the trouble we are today.

 
At 29/8/08 8:57 am, Anonymous sdm said...

would steven wallace still be alive if the police had tazers?

 
At 29/8/08 9:31 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

but lets face it the chance of you personally geting tasered is about as much as any other thirty something media professional (i.e. very low) and this issue isn't something that you'll ever get people worked up about in NZ.
Wow, you sound like a cop, only a cop could say that, it doesn't hurt you so why care? Wow.


Don't get worked up dear. I said Bomber is unlikely to ever get tasered and that most NZ'ers aren't getting frothed up like you about this as they are unlikely to ever be tasered either and don't really have this bleeding heart liberal fake concern about crims.

ask anyone of the 300 who have died since its introduction in north america if their civil liberties were eroded.

What is that 300 a percentage of those actual hit by a taser? Where do you get this figure from anyway?

would steven wallace still be alive if the police had tazers?

Much more likely isn't it?

 
At 29/8/08 9:38 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And what is the Independent Police Conduct Authority (http://www.pca.govt.nz/) for?

70% of which is still being handled by cops investigating cops.


The Authority has in addition been funded to provide an independent investigative capability separate from the Police, this enabling it to undertake investigations into matters which in its opinion require independent investigation.

 
At 29/8/08 9:59 am, Anonymous Lock and Load said...

umm, if you commit the crime and are aggressive and will not co-operate, and therefore get tasered or sprayed etc...HOW DOES THAT ERODE CIVIL LIBERTIES???!! It is that person who has eroded the civil liberties by breaking the law and acting anti-socially. enough feeling sorry for the criminal. its that sort of feeling that has us in the trouble we are today.

What is the Police misuse the taser, what about the misuse of pepper spray they were fined $5000 for, you claim that only people who deserve it will get tasered, and that is just living in a fantasy world.

 
At 29/8/08 10:01 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

would steven wallace still be alive if the police had tazers?
Ask any of the 300 who have died in North America since Tasers were introduced and ask them if they wouldn't have died if they hadn't been tasered.

 
At 29/8/08 10:05 am, Anonymous lol said...

Don't get worked up dear.
What a patronizing thing to say, don't seem to like it when someone pulls you up on something do you? Used to always being right I suppose, like most men with their head up their arse, would that be fair or unfair of me in responding to your 'dear' shit?

I said Bomber is unlikely to ever get tasered and that most NZ'ers aren't getting frothed up like you about this as they are unlikely to ever be tasered either and don't really have this bleeding heart liberal fake concern about crims.
So Bomber shouldn't care because he won't be tasered, why bother with human rights if the consequences don't effect you huh? Incredible, and seeing as Bomber has always argued these points claiming its some fake concern is just childish.

 
At 29/8/08 10:06 am, Anonymous lock and load said...

The Authority has in addition been funded to provide an independent investigative capability separate from the Police, this enabling it to undertake investigations into matters which in its opinion require independent investigation.
So if a story is too big to cover up the Authority will be forced by the media to do something. Great, I feel much better, give them fully automatic weapons.

 
At 29/8/08 10:31 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting that Howard Broad isn't prepared to be tasered ...

I don't think police having tasers is eroding our civil liberties per se. Tapping phone lines, recording private conversations, looking into people's private emails ... yes that is erosion of civil liberties. I'm not saying I agree with tasers, (quite frankly I don't care one way or t'other) but I also don't think you can claim it's an erosion of civil liberties.

NS

 
At 29/8/08 10:50 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

would steven wallace still be alive if the police had tazers?
Ask any of the 300 who have died in North America since Tasers were introduced and ask them if they wouldn't have died if they hadn't been tasered.


How many people in North America have been shot by tasers? Whats the survival rate?

What's the survival rate of those shot by firearms?

Of those 300 how many had existing medical conditions?

How many of those 300 were acting violently posing a danger to themselves or others at the time of being tasered?

 
At 29/8/08 10:59 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tasers bad for mental health patients - MHF

Cannabis bad for mental health patients - MHF

Alcohol bad for mental health patients - MHF

Pointing and laughing bad for mental health patients - MHF

Not taking medication bad for mental health patients - MHF

From the article...

"The use of Tasers in mental health emergencies needs to be fully investigated before this weapon is sanctioned for use on the general public."

Thats the problem, they're not going to be used on the 'general public', they are going to be used on the small subset of the general public who are acting violently in a confrontation with the cops. These folks would have been shot or bashed anyway.

 
At 29/8/08 11:41 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thats the problem, they're not going to be used on the 'general public'

What you're saying is, you hope they're not. It's up to the police isn't it.

The taser is a powerful weapon. It's great, you can use it to subdue a violent criminal, without having to beat them or shoot them or endanger yourself.

Alternatively, you can give a quick tasering to someone who ticks you off. Answers you back. Refuses to do what you tell them to. It's up to you, really. The cool thing is, it's so easy. If it were left to you to beat or shoot, well, you're in for a bollocking if you shoot someone unless it's really justified, and beating can be hard work. And it leaves marks.

So it's good that you have such great confidence in the police. Since you're so pro-authority, I'm sure you have equal confidence in our elected government. Not to mention our beloved foreign minister.

Well we sure need to have confidence in the police now, because being tasered really fucking hurts. And sometimes it kills you.

But none of this should worry you any. Police in New Zealand would never abuse their powers. They never have...

Have they?

 
At 29/8/08 12:19 pm, Anonymous deano said...

I'd rather be tasered than shot. Not that there is much chance of either. I obey the law (well, the sensible ones anyway) and would comply with a policeman's instructions.

Also this cracks me up:
Tasers bad for mental health patients - MHF

Cannabis bad for mental health patients - MHF

Alcohol bad for mental health patients - MHF

Pointing and laughing bad for mental health patients - MHF

Not taking medication bad for mental health patients - MHF

Next time there is a violent mental patient waving a machete around, don't taser him. Plead with him be rational, and get the head of the Mental Health Foundation to talk them down. Oh, they don't want to? Oh, there isn't time? So what do we do about the nutter with knife?

 
At 29/8/08 12:51 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What you're saying is, you hope they're not. It's up to the police isn't it.

The police don't make the laws do they? Unless you are seriously suggesting the cops are going to start tasering anyone that gives them a dirty look or random passers by?

The taser is a powerful weapon. It's great, you can use it to subdue a violent criminal, without having to beat them or shoot them or endanger yourself.

Exactly.

Alternatively, you can give a quick tasering to someone who ticks you off. Answers you back. Refuses to do what you tell them to. It's up to you, really. The cool thing is, it's so easy. If it were left to you to beat or shoot, well, you're in for a bollocking if you shoot someone unless it's really justified, and beating can be hard work. And it leaves marks.

You have firsthand experience of this do you?

If you have concrete evidence of this you should go to the papers, because it'd be a hell of a story?

Or is this all just a figment of your RATM addled brain?

So it's good that you have such great confidence in the police.

Based on my (limited) experiences with cops I do. Not to say there aren't any bad cops, there are I'm sure.

Since you're so pro-authority, I'm sure you have equal confidence in our elected government. Not to mention our beloved foreign minister.

Not especially no, 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5 Anon.

Well we sure need to have confidence in the police now, because being tasered really fucking hurts. And sometimes it kills you.

And being shot or bashed with a baton doesn't?

But none of this should worry you any. Police in New Zealand would never abuse their powers. They never have...

For sure, NZ police aren't saints but its a bit of leap for them to start tasering random people isn't it?

 
At 29/8/08 1:01 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Guys, you should know that the only acceptable way to subdue a psychotic and heavily armed lunatic is to shoot a big rainbow of love from your bursting heart then shower him with fairy dust and moonbeams until he throws his arms up in delight and joins you for tea and crumpets with Mr Bear and Princess Fairy.

 
At 29/8/08 2:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting that Howard Broad isn't prepared to be tasered ...

Because he knows that the Taser is a lethal weapon, it may well be lights out for him (for good) if he gets electrocuted by the Taser weapon.

 
At 29/8/08 2:31 pm, Anonymous sdm said...

Kill the criminals.

 
At 29/8/08 2:34 pm, Anonymous sdm said...

Opps I hit send too early above.

Kill the Cciminals with or use a tazer? Im happier with a tazer. Society is getting progressively violent, and the police need the tools to protect themselves and us law abiding citizens..

Where is the problem?

 
At 29/8/08 3:04 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guys, you should know that the only acceptable way to subdue a psychotic and heavily armed lunatic is to shoot a big rainbow of love from your bursting heart then shower him with fairy dust and moonbeams until he throws his arms up in delight and joins you for tea and crumpets with Mr Bear and Princess Fairy.

Titter.

 
At 29/8/08 3:14 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The amnesty international figure are flawed and inaccurate, only a small percentage of the 300 deaths they claim resulted from taser use actually were caused by the taser according to the post mortem and pathologist reports.

In the cases were people have been killed, usually the cops were completely excessive, tasering people 8-10 times for prolonged periods, those people had existing medical conditions usually heart conditions which were often excerbated by the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine and speed.

To use the argument that the taser is a lethal weapon based on their figures is simply wrong, but its the kinda knee jerk argument that people like Keith Locke typically rely upon. It is a potentially lethal weapon but had the cops in the states had abused battons and firearms to the same degree death would also have occurred.

And comparing the N.Z Police to the American Police in the first place is fundamentally flawed due to the huge differences.

How many deaths or abuses of taser have occured in Australia or England?

I would love to see Keith Locke attend a violent domestic on his own like many Police Sergeants have to do due to under staffing and be faced with a 120kg criminal armed with a baseball bat on P and then see him argue that Police don't need tasers.

 
At 29/8/08 4:50 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting that Howard Broad isn't prepared to be tasered ...

You breathtaking stupid fuckwit.

I'm sure Howard Broard isn't prepared to be shot with a bushmaster rifle - should they get rid of those too?

Is howard Broard prepared to be clubed over the head with a batton? No, well we should take those off the cops too.

Is Howard Broard prepared to be thrown into D block at Poremoremo?
No? Well we should let the poor lambs out of there too.

Your warped logic is utterly astonishing in the depth of its sheer idiocy.

 
At 29/8/08 5:56 pm, Anonymous Response from Amnesty International said...

Anonymous has either misread or Amnesty’s comments have been misreported. Amnesty International is not saying 300 deaths have been caused by Taser use rather that 300 deaths followed Taser use. In some 30 of these deaths in North America the coroner or pathologist advised Taser use contributed to the death.

Amnesty International globally is calling for the use of Tasers® or stun guns to be suspended and for a moratorium on their introduction until a rigorous, independent and impartial inquiry into their use and effects has been carried out. And that includes into what exactly is causing these deaths.

Despite Police and manufacturer assurances that these are weapons of less than lethal force – these deaths give a lie to that suggestion.

As a human rights organisation, Amnesty International acknowledges the importance of developing non-lethal force options to decrease the risk of death or injury inherent in police use of firearms and other weapons.

International standards recognize that situations will arise in which police officers will have to use force. However, these standards, specifically the UN Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials and the Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials, set specific guidelines on when, how and the extent to which force can legitimately be used. NZ Police should ensure that officers are trained to use force strictly in accordance with these standards.

It is adherence to such standards that will ensure that we here in New Zealand don’t see what Anonymous comments was “the cops…. completely excessive, tasering people 8-10 times for prolonged periods, those people had existing medical conditions usually heart conditions which were often excerbated by the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine and speed.”

 
At 29/8/08 5:58 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i'm with bomber on this one

Because with tasers being introduced it will mean less Pacific Islanders being shot like they should be

 
At 1/9/08 1:09 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 4:50

Interesting that Howard Broad isn't prepared to be tasered ...

You breathtaking stupid fuckwit.

You dickhead! I was making this comment given that the majority of police chiefs who have made tasers legal for police to use around the world - were prepared to be tasered themselves as a show of the lack of danger, but not your apparently beloved Howard Broad.

Some people just don't get it huh

NS

 

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