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Thursday, May 29, 2008

War on the Vietnam parallel

Photo: UK Ministry of Defence

What is our foreign intervention and occupation policy again? Whatever the Americans (Iraq) and the Australians (RAMSI) say it is?

Conspicuous lack of blue UN helmets on the tour of the troops. Not one. At the behest of Dick fucking Cheney, Israel, pure American greed and most of all the idiocy of the progeny of the Texan aristocracy - via the US military governorship of Iraq - the PM visits our troops in Iraq.

What was she doing? Bringing our troops home? She just sent them there! That's the sort of lame arse thing John Key would have done.

In 1962, Australia sent advisors, as the United States had, but again New Zealand refused to make a similar contribution. Instead, a detachment of Royal New Zealand Engineers and a surgical team was sent to Vietnam, the former consisting of two officers and 20 other ranks. The Engineers were sent to the Southern Republic in a non-combatant capacity to undertake reconstruction tasks in and around the town of Thủ Dầu Một. At the same time a small administrative headquarters was established in Saigon. These engineers would be withdrawn in 1965. The surgical team was made up of seven men and would eventually grow to sixteen, and remained in the country until 1975. The team worked for civilians at the Binh Dinh Province Hospital, in Qui Nhon, an overcrowded, and dirty facility almost completely lacking equipment and bedding. This contingent was dispatched in June 1964. [W]

And if Holyoake had toured the engineers it would have been right to protest against it, but he left - and so did the Kirk government - the surgeons to help the civilians. What did Helen Clark leave? No political fingerprints?

New Zealand began the gradual withdrawal of its combat forces as the training teams were arriving. Prime Minister Holyoake said in 1971 that New Zealand's combat forces would be withdrawn by "about the end of this year," and they were - Whiskey Three Company went in November 1970, the SAS Troop and 161 Battery followed in February and May 1971 respectively, and Victor Six Company and the tri-service medical team left with the 1st Australian Task Force in December 1971, ending New Zealand's combat involvement in the Vietnam War. One of the first acts of Prime Minister Norman Kirk's Labour Party government (elected in December 1972) was to withdraw both training teams and the New Zealand headquarters in Saigon. [W]

So the Kirk government did what Helen Clark did to her own action in Iraq. A brilliant tactician - she didn't help start, but participated in, and then ended and withdrew her troops from her own personal Vietnam. Incidentally therapeutic perhaps , but to involve the military in a diplomatic impasse in the Mesopotamia smacks of Caesar - not the national interests of a small country in the South Pacific.

Playing third fiddle to George Bush - or perhaps that should be banjo. How ignominious. We are on the roll-call of shame. And the NZ military are still there, apparently:
New Zealand is still represented in Iraq by liaison and staff officers working with coalition forces.

So, sometimes I don't know what's worse - the Chairman Mao in dungarees look, or the fact we don't have an ethical foreign policy.


At 29/5/08 12:55 pm, Anonymous Avenger said...

Some people love rewriting history and showing an anti-American bias when commenting on the historical facts around Viet Nam.

At that time, the cold-war period, New Zealand was actively involved in South East Asia and ASEAN.

It was the communist North Vietnamese, with USSR support, whom invaded the South. New Zealand's involvement was part of the response to that threat.

At 29/5/08 2:30 pm, Anonymous Tee said...

How again was this 'at the behest of Israel'?

You'll be pushing for the compulsory wearing of yellow stars soon...

At 29/5/08 2:43 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"New Zealand - Two rotations of 61 military engineers, known as Task Force Rake, operated in Iraq from September 26, 2003 to September 25, 2004.[85][86] They were deployed to undertake humanitarian and reconstruction tasks consistent with UN Security Council Resolution 1483; they were not part of the invading force. While in Iraq the unit was under British command (South East Iraq) and was based in Basra."

Any remaining NZ military personnel in Iraq are there only because they have been seconded to the US/UK or Australian forces under an exchange programme. I doubt there are any more than one or two there, if any.

There are probably many more NZ nationals working for PMCs in Iraq.

At 29/5/08 2:44 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually here we go - from NZDF site -

"Assistant Military Advisor One NZDF Officer is providing liaison between the United Nations Assistance Mission Iraq (UNAMI) and the Multinational Force and Iraqi Security Forces.

In addition the NZDF officer provides advice on military matters to the UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General (SRSG).

This NZDF officer is currently located in Baghdad."

A grand total of one officer.

At 29/5/08 2:48 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hardly the same thing is it Tim? get a grip. I think the Americans acted stupidly in Iraq too, but this is stretching things a bit far.

At 29/5/08 3:10 pm, Blogger Wingate said...

I think Tim is frustrated and has had a gutfill of idiots in power. If we look back over the last 100 years we can see a long list of foolish decisions made by our leaders. They never suffer, we the people do. An experiment that has been carried out many times concluded humans follow those they believe to be in control. The experiment went like this:
Two actors- one playing a doctor, the other strapped to a chair with electrical wires connected to him. The doctor is pretending he has a new truth/lie detector machine to test and asks for volunteers to help. As the doctor asks questions, each time he says they are lying he asks the volunteer to turn a electric shock device on to encourage the person in the chair to tell the truth. As the questions role-on and the answers are wrong the doctors asks the volunteer to keep increasing the voltage till such point as the strapped in actor pretends he is in such pain he passes out. The volunteer is then asked why they kept turning up the voltage causing pain. Their answer was simple, they considered the doctor knew what he was doing and they didn't feel the need to question his expertise. The lesson in this human behavior is obvious when we apply that to society. Reading the news, hearing a judgement, watching laws being passed through parliament and hearing the politicians talk. I think one of the great problems is the current state of world media in that if you don’t hear the news, you’re not informed, but if you do, you’re probably misinformed.The public are witnessing the growing trends of politicians and the judiciary bowing to the demands of big business and other hidden agenda. Networking power appears to be shifting influence and authority into the hands of some legal and business corporations often in a corrupt way.The problem of hidden agenda and idiots in power means local councils and central government are incompetent costing everyone extra tax money they need to help their own families. Police are being frustrated trying to keep us safe, court staff witness havoc, education levels are failing, health care standards are failing, Government power non negotiable with common sense unreachable. Government have too much influence on media, lobbyists influence on politicians, while our politicians are accountable to no one from their communities, yet they work for us.

Think about this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician
Criticism- International equity expert Professor Paul Finn has underlined, “the most fundamental fiduciary relationship in our society is manifestly that which exists between the community (the people) and the state, its agencies and officials. “

Many suggest the basic problem of stopping Human Rights violations and political negligence stems from the lack of understanding by media and politicians on the laws of fiduciary control. In equity fiduciary control suggests obligations that not only comprise of duties of good faith and loyalty, but also include duties of skill and competence in managing the people's interests. After all, Government is a trust structure created by people to manage certain services within society with the politicians depended on by the people to do that task. Therefore the relationship between government and it's politicians and the governed is clearly a fiduciary one.

Rules such as Sovereign Immunity and Crown and Judicial Immunity are now being targeted as the very the tools of oppression that are preventing victims from taking action against the people controlling the country who are causing the failure of care. Originating from within the Courts of Equity, the fiduciary concept was partly designed to prevent those holding positions of power from abusing their authority.

This new thinking suggests anyone accepting any political or government control over the interests of people should be judged by the most exacting fiduciary standards given politicians are the most important fiduciaries in any society given they hold power over the people with power that comes from the people through elections. The fiduciary relationship arises from the government and it's politicians ability to control people with the exercise of that power. In effect the argument is, if politicians have the power to abolish or ignore any rights they should be burdened with the fiduciary duty to protect people's rights because the government (or others engaging politicians on their behalf) would benefit from the exercise of discretion to extinguish rights which it alone had the power to dispose of.

If you want to know how bad it really is in New Zealand
read - http://idiotsinpower.blogspot.com/

At 29/5/08 3:38 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Newzzzzflash. People in power are corrupt and will do anything to hold onto their power over the rest of us.

Sorry for the sarcasm, nice blog.

At 29/5/08 3:47 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't be sucked in by Wingate he is apparantly a 'rich businessman' who doesn't like it when the courts don't legislate his way and won't let him build his environment destroying rich mans playground. He doesn't care about the 'little people'. Go back to Perth CW.

At 29/5/08 4:18 pm, Blogger Nepenthe said...

Tim you are drawing a very long bow. How bout you post on how John Key just said the vietnam war was the "right thing to do".

At 29/5/08 7:11 pm, Blogger Mr Grinch said...

Bit of a stretch to go around saying NZ is supporting the war in Iraq because we have a grand total of about 50 military engineers there, and one or two soldiers on exchange.

Staying out of Iraq was one of the best descisions NZ has made, don't try and detract from that, especially with this far-stretched argument.

At 29/5/08 9:24 pm, Blogger Luke said...

Hey there Tim, it's me Luke, you meet me earlier tonight.

This is the man you should be looking into:


Brief Overview of Congressman Paul's Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He opposes the idea and induction of a National ID card.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

Ron Paul receives a higher amount of donations from members of the navy, army and air force than any of the "front runners".

Ron Paul's just released book titles "The Revolution - A Manifesto" went straight to number 1 on the N.Y.T. best sellers.

You would think that he would be paraded by the Republicans as their preferred candidate wouldn't you.

No doubt that he will not be president, but he is a catalyst for a new revolution.

Just recently, minutes of a Bilderberg meeting were leaked and in the meeting he was discussed as a threat to the industries because "young people are getting their political education"

Call me crazy, but do your own research.

At 29/5/08 9:44 pm, Blogger Tim Selwyn said...

"Staying out of Iraq was one of the best descisions NZ has made, don't try and detract from that"

But, Mr Grinch, the point is we were in Iraq - and that does detract from the bullshit that we weren't there. The NZ govt. supported the war for at least 6 months - just after the bit where the UN (and NZ) gave the governance of Iraq over to the Americans.

Nepenthe: John Key was miffed he didn't get tickets for the Springbok in '81. He says he "didn't protest either way" for or against the tour. So, to him - in his way of thinking - people were protesting in favour of the Springboks as well - and that he opens the possibility that he may have taken their side... !? Why else would you respond that way to the simple enough question: "Did you support the Springbok Tour?"

OK, so that's where the man is coming from.

Clark on the other hand gets to say: "I was against the start of the war" - and magically, in a matter of weeks she's offering up troops to the British to help out America in a war she says she was against. That, Mr Grinch, is beyond a "far-stretched argument." It is the PM's stance that lacks credibility.

At 29/5/08 9:52 pm, Blogger Tim Selwyn said...


Thanks for commenting. Good as your word.

I didn't research too much into Ron Paul because he was never a contender - too much of a Mr Magoo. The libertarians and some far right groups were really pushing him and so I turned off. I did watch some You Tube clips of Paul though, and I think it was the Brit Hulme one on CNN (or was it Fox?) and he made the best summation of what was wrong with US foreign policy that I've probably ever heard from an American politician. And Hulme totally shut him down and the others beat up on him. It was quite disgraceful.

At 29/5/08 10:59 pm, Blogger Luke said...

Cheers Tim.

Yeah he knew as well as anyone that he can't win presidency with the United State's fraudulent voting system.
The elections in the US are clearly just a show for the public to feel like they have a say when they really don't, but thank god for Mr. Paul with his honest history in the Congress and closeness to Reagan, he was able to get himself a platform in the Republican party.

All he wanted to do was to inform as many people as he could about the problems the US has, does and will face with continuing big government.

You should watch him in the debates and the results of txt/internet polls afterwards all have him as a clear winner.

Did you know that the ENTIRE State of Nevada Republican convention was shut down and canceled because he was pulling more than McCain!

Check him 20 years ago:

He is also the only person ready to abolish the federal reserve and for good reason. Thank god he's got as little attention as he has, it will cause a wave of questions from the public.



At 29/5/08 11:10 pm, Blogger Nepenthe said...

Tim I was referring to this:

At 30/5/08 6:55 am, Blogger rangi said...

luke: ron paul = dead horse

the labour government is a lot further to the right than most people seem to think. i rememeber phil goff meeting with some makers of weapons of mass destruction (in NZ!! F.O.!!) then the next day or so speaking at an anti-cluster bombs conference.


i don't like the way helen handled this either, it's dishonest. wars and killing are wrong, and it's blatant that our (token) participation was only to please bush n co. fuck em.

At 30/5/08 7:33 pm, Blogger Luke said...

rangi, hes not in it to just get votes for presidency, he wants to change the mindset of ameriKa which he is at a rapid rate.

wait for july 12th you'll see how "dead" this horse is;)

At 30/5/08 8:42 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ron paul = libetarian horseshit

At 30/5/08 8:46 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

roun pooolke is a sexxy sexxy man

At 30/5/08 11:01 pm, Blogger Luke said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

ron paul = libetarian horseshit

30/5/08 8:42 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

roun pooolke is a sexxy sexxy man

30/5/08 8:46 PM

Get a towel, don't wank on your keyboard it's just messy, non productive and no one wants to see it to be honest.
Find something productive to do with your keyboard.


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