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Thursday, March 20, 2008

Bullocks

Just heard an interview on National Radio with Josie Bullock, the Corrections employee dismissed over going to the media about a sex discrimination issue. She was very antagonistic and confrontational during the discussion with a the host, and from her personality I can understand why she acted the way she did. Putting aside the "whistle-blower" aspect of her dismissal, the crux of the matter for her and the ruling the Human Rights (tribunal?) made was that the way in which she was treated at a Maori ceremony/meeting was sexist. But I'm not so sure.

I've been at Maori ceremonies/meetings where the men have to stand at the back, and I didn't feel it was sexist or that I was being discriminated against because I was a male. Gender roles are assigned in these matters, but I don't think anyone there felt it was a problem. Then again Bullock is the type of person to have her hackles raised easily, while most people do not.

Her issues seemed to be that she had to sit where she didn't want to AND that she could not speak because she was a woman. Only the latter complaint is important as far as I'm concerned. On that score the department should (and I beleive may have) change its policy. Mixing the official procedures of government with Maori tikanga needn't be a hassle, but if you want authenticity then it becomes problematic. Surely there's a type of protocol that can work for everyone?

33 Comments:

At 20/3/08 4:20 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As you say, at the Maori welcoming ceremony there are gender roles assigned and -one gender does not function without the other. It's all very chivalrous.

 
At 20/3/08 5:03 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are right Tim, the policy has been changed at corrections.Still we don't need another one concerning anonymous posts do we mate.We aren't all whiz-kids like Bomber, and the "dalai lama clique"?

 
At 20/3/08 7:40 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting perspective

http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/stirringthepot/2008/03/19/cultural-sensitivity/

 
At 21/3/08 8:40 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it's pathetic to dismiss Josie's initial complaint as "not important". You glaringly left out that the ruling included that she'd been discriminated against. Is sexism ok when it's cultural then?

In principle, if a culture had appropriate designated areas for men and women, like men on the left, women on the right for example, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Isn't it funny, though, how it always seems to be men first, women fuck off down the back where you belong.

 
At 21/3/08 1:53 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...
I think it's pathetic to dismiss Josie's initial complaint as "not important". You glaringly left out that the ruling included that she'd been discriminated against. Is sexism ok when it's cultural then?

I don't think this women should of been dismissed, yet without knowing to much about dismissal, I have no comment there; this notion about being sexual discriminated against her, though true in some form, theirs another issue, crown written that makes it hard for the discrimination complaint to be heard; though all probably wont agree; I didn't write it or say it case against Tame iti procession of firearm was over turned by the court of appeal on these grounds: [CROWN] because crown law does not enter into the ceremonial grounds of a Marae; I know all wont agree. but like I said; I didn't write it, ceremonial practice of a powhiri puts it inside the ceremonial grounds of a Marae, the marae is the land not the buildings. Therefore theres no crown law, no sexual discrimination

In principle, if a culture had appropriate designated areas for men and women, like men on the left, women on the right for example, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Isn't it funny, though, how it always seems to be men first, women fuck off down the back where you belong.

This isn't somewhat true about Maori culture, women play an important part, Ngati Hine is a women and without her lots of Maori would be here, Te Pua is another, she pave the way throughout history for Maori everywhere. But for the purpose of ceremony, such as Powhiri, the paepae [or front seats] is where the men sit, not because there men, no, because they are the speakers for people they brought in, or for the House; depending of what side you're on. For a women to cause trouble, or wanting to sit on the paepae (if this was the case) it is a direct challenge to the people welcoming them and an insult to ones that brought them. These speakers [Manuhiri] tell the house why they are there and who they are there. the House asks why they have come and laid out the rules of the House; So there no disrespect because she's a women, women play quite an important part to our culture, they call are the first point of call for any manuhiri, at any tangi. If she wanted to speak on the paepae, she should of told them before they got there, a place would may of been saved for her, depending on the house rules. If granted she would needed to be sharp, paepae holds no favours, some may of seen it as an insult to them anyway.

 
At 21/3/08 2:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The women are placed at the back, because in old times the warriors in the front often had to face hostile visitors. The men therefore, were the first to die in battle while defending the women (the childbearers, the tribe's future.)

 
At 21/3/08 2:18 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The first voice you hear when being welcomed onto a Marae, is always that of a woman.

It is an insult to any speaker (male), if his oratory is not supported a song sung by women (usually women).

An Australian told me that he knew all about Maori culture because he had seen the movie 'Once Were Warriors'.

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

 
At 21/3/08 5:23 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...
The women are placed at the back, because in old times the warriors in the front often had to face hostile visitors. The men therefore, were the first to die in battle while defending the women (the childbearers, the tribe's future.)

This maybe true when war was a issue anon, but not at a powhiri, needless to say the women are the ones that Karanga the people into or onto the Marae.. Now that last red neck comment: are Maori the only ones that beat or even neglect there children? NO there not are they? so what what will be pakeha's excuse? "DONT ANSWER THAT JUST THINK IT THROUGH"
---------------------------------

Anonymous said...
The first voice you hear when being welcomed onto a Marae, is always that of a woman.

It is an insult to any speaker (male), if his oratory is not supported a song sung by women (usually women).


Very nice, to true

 
At 21/3/08 7:39 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If people choose to go to a Maori ceremony (or church for that matter) good luck to them, but when there is coercion and its part of getting, or keeping, a government job that’s very different.

I had to go to one (the government would pretend it was a choice but it was made clear it was expected and job prospects would be impaired to anyone who didn’t attend.

I found the ‘instruction’ we had to attend prior to the ceremony and the ceremony itself very disturbing and would never attend another, I would rather go on the dole.

I would like to know how much money changes hands by the way, an envelope of cash was handed over but it was a secret how much it was.

Anyway there were several major things that were totally unacceptable in my view, it bcame clear there would be a strong religious (christian) element to proceedings, then there was the sexual discrimination (and to a lesser ectent racial discrimination) the women were told they had to stand at the back and under no circumstances were they to speak, it was also implied that only men who identified and looked Maori should speak, although one white guy did, that did not go down well with some, and caused some tension but one of the host men made a small joke about it and that seemed to ease thigs.

The ceremony was even worse than I expected, apart from being a load of boring, repetitive, meaningless babble, an old guy spoke in Maori and then told us he had prayed (not sure who to) for us – I do not ask or welcome anyone being so arrogant as to pray for me. I feared these people would decide they had the right to impose their supernatural fantasies onto me and had asked if I could attend as an observer only, but was told very agressively that would not be acceptable and I had to ‘respect’ others, it would seem no-one considered they might show some ‘respect’ towards me.

As I said if people choose it good luck but to bring it into work and impose it on people who would not choose it –it has to stop.

I realise hypocrite atheists and "women" like Clark will attend anything if she thinks it buys a few votes but not everyone is as cowardly and fraudulent as she is, for some people honesty means something.

 
At 21/3/08 11:08 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It must of been painful for you to leave that unguarded white hood at the door Anonymous, just reading that I could feel your pain.

you poor wee thing you. I mean how rude of these Maori's to follow there own culture, so glad you were narrow minded about going.

you poor thing.

 
At 21/3/08 11:11 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

{CORRECTION}
so glad you weren't narrow minded about going.

you poor thing. how rude of them maori's, Tim please address this issue for Anonymous.

 
At 21/3/08 11:35 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"realise hypocrite atheists and "women" like Clark will attend anything if she thinks it buys a few votes"

I would say she's exactly the opposite, she's prepared to disenfranchise maori from their rights as citizens to seek redress in the courts (Foreshore Seabed Act) while throwing them a few poi sessions to pretend she care.

Executive Summary
More votes in redneck issues than placating a few horis

 
At 22/3/08 8:06 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Never figured out how christianity (and other religion) is Maori culture. Pathetic that these people adopted (and kept) something imposed on them by their oppressors. Makes me equally sick and confused to see American blacks doing the same thing. Sure it must have been easy to con people (they believed in it themselves) in the 1800’s but now – come on.

This is the 21st century, what’s wrong with participating in the age in which you live.

Do you think Maori are to stupid to understand reality and science so they are better off being anaesthetised, held back and down by dark age superstitions and outdated ideas. Women were banned from a lot of things in the past, as time goes by (in many societies) more doors are opened (albeit reluctantly) to them.

‘Bishop’ Tamiki is a Maori, a moron and a crook, if he an example of what stupid ignorant blacks (and stupid ignorant whites) want good luck to them but don’t ask me to take them seriously.

Surely people need to adjust to the times they live in and adjust to new information, it used to be the ‘culture’ of most countries to not allow women to vote, most have changed a bit at least. I don’t understand the attraction of living in the past, although people tend to be selective in that and cherry pick the bits of the past that give them what they want. Keep women quiet (mind you I don’t blame men, if Maori women are to weak to demand change that’s their choice) but go to McDonalds, blacks have certainly embraced the 21st century fashion of obesity, so many good things about progress and modernity and they pick that one.

You respect if you want, now run along the Easter Bunny is waiting for you.

Real culture changes, adjusts, adapts, embraces new conditions and information ….. when did the Chinese give up binding the feet of women, crikey the British even outlawed fox hunting, it took a while but they got there in the end, not to many mourned the loss of that outdated bit of their ‘culture’, how long will it take for the Spanish to ban bull fighting. How long will it take for Maoris to understand and adopt the idea of organ donations, living in the ignorant past can be deadly.

I reckon the Muslims would get rich picking amongst a lot of Maoris, its even more in the past than they are, can you see the women accepting the order to walk respectfully behind the ‘men’ in burkas, I can.

If you insist on ‘praying’ for me at least do me the courtesy of keeping it to yourself.

 
At 22/3/08 8:17 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

People invite me to church (gosh there are so many how would I choose the 'right' one) - I don't go but you can if you want.

Is Richard Dawkins 'narrow minded', hardly - but you can believe that if you want.

Why do you call on white boy Tim to address things for you, has he written a best seller I don't know about, ‘The Progress Delusion’ perhaps.

 
At 22/3/08 10:15 am, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...
Never figured out how christianity (and other religion) is Maori culture. Pathetic that these people adopted (and kept) something imposed on them by their oppressors. Makes me equally sick and confused to see American blacks doing the same thing. Sure it must have been easy to con people (they believed in it themselves) in the 1800’s but now – come on.

I totally agree with you on this comment anon, but I hope to shed some info on this so you know how this comes about, NZ history painted that pakeha missionaries land in the North first, in fact Hone Heke was educated by some of these missionaries, they pulled and preached about God and Jesus, of of sins and convince most Maori far North that there carving were Evil, reason why most whare tupuna started removing them, Maori continued to practice spirituality as they knew it, but the new diseases was something they couldn't combat.. [fastward] govt came via NSW in 1909 the Tohunga Suppression Act was enforced making it illegal to practice any from of Maori Spirituality, laws still there today, so they didn't have much choice but to learn about Christianity

But ignorance is bliss they say

 
At 22/3/08 12:19 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how maori do not complain that their ceremony is sexist, but other people do.

 
At 22/3/08 3:38 pm, Blogger Tim Selwyn said...

Te Kaea news had a very aggressive and condemnatory piece on Bullock. The woman who interviewed Bullock gave her heaps - I don't think I've ever seen a news piece where the reporter included their own remarks without the response! "Who in Maoridom", she concluded, "would [have sympathy] for her". Jesus. I mean it was a fair summation from the Maori side, but the way it was done left a lot to be desired. The reporter wanted her to confess that she was anti-Maori, now Bullock must have not answered it because we never saw the come-back. The negativity of the reporter reinforces the idea that Bullock is highly confrontational and she just doesn't get along with people - like with the interview on National Radio, Katherine Ryan was being neutral, but Bullock's responses were very terse and she ranted over the top of Ryan. So a lot of this issue is actually Bullock's antagonistic personality.

As I mentioned I've been at the back with the other men in some Powhiri - and the women are at the front - but that doesn't mean men are less valued and women are more valued. There are just different roles for certain aspects of tikanga Maori. Similarly in Pakeha tikanga I would be considered an adult, but in some instances (even though I have the stray grey hair) I am considered a youth - my mana isn't enough to transcend this, but then again I defer to my Elders in these matters. It's not an issue - unless your own self-evaluation is several steps ahead of everyone else's. It's not so much "knowing your place" as "respecting everyone's place".

Christianity. Fuck Christianity. Maori and everyone else ought to reject it. Prayers can be offered in a non-Christian way - and out to be. Remember the prayer in the NZ parliament is a hard-core Anglican one - and it is done at the start of every sitting day. This is a Pakeha Christian prayer that should be discontinued immediately and if there is to be some formal statement at the start it should not be religious at all. Because Pakeha have this prayer does it mean however that they are "Pathetic" or "to [sic] stupid to understand reality and science" and "living in the past" as implied about Maori by Anon commenter above?

The ability to speak, and thus meaningfully participate, at discussions is the important issue. Women must be allowed to do so if they currently do not. As Hone Harawira's battleaxe mother has said on the issue - if you want to speak then speak and God help anyone who tries to stop you. Which is actually quite a Bullocky stance. Tact not being a trait ascribed to either one of them, I'm not sure belligerence is always the way to change matters of protocol.

 
At 22/3/08 4:48 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone hear Kim Hill this morning. Interviewed a doctor from MSF, the subject of FGM came up, tradition and 'culture' again.

Of course people many people believed in christianity in the past, its ironic that the country who first brought it here (the UK) have, for the most part, moved on, but the people who they took it to (now continued by the Americans of course) believe it even more.

1909 is almost a 100 years ago, there was an excuse to believe in the supernatural then, what’s the excuse now.


‘……. Prayers can be offered in a non-Christian way…..’ I love that

People who pretend prayer is not praying because the don’t say jesus, please. I was at something once and it was announced that the meetings would open with a prayer each week so I left the room. From then on agreed to arrive late (I would not do that today, this group was paid for with taxpayers money and was not advertised as being religious or ‘spiritual’ what ever that means so I would stand my ground) anyway one week I arrive late as agreed but they had not got around to the prayer yet, one of the leaders said to me I might want to stay and join in because it was not really a ‘prayer’ so I asked her more, in the end I asked if they would be addressing a supernatural deity of some kind (call it what you like, a deity by any other name is still a fantasy I don’t want in my life) in the end she reluctantly admitted it was in fact a ‘prayer’ and I left the room so they could talk to the stars.

As for the parliament prayer, come on Helen you lying hypocrite stop it now, if MP’s feel the need to seek ‘spiritual’ guidance good luck to them (if people choose to vote for people who are that stupid that’s their choice) but don’t impose it on everyone.

As for not having to pay rates, other taxes and being except from employment rules if you can successfully claim to be a religion .......

John Howard was very friendly and a supporter of the Exclusive Brethren, his replacement, that idiot Rudd, is almost as mad, then we have Blair a closet catholic – who was to much of a liar to admit it until he moved on.

What’s next Tom Cruise for president ….. the world is going (has gone) totally mad.

 
At 22/3/08 4:59 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how maori do not complain that their ceremony is sexist, but other people do.

Sorry I don't understand this comment anon, every nation had people in difference, English king & Queen through to the poor, now the poor didn't say well shit she just cut me off that must be a breach of my civil rights, you in your view you maybe right about sexist, but if the crown law doesn't enter into the ceremonial grounds of a Marae and on the Maori side it is the kaua [protocol] of the powhiri then how can maori, following there tradition be pulled up on sexist complaint. I wai i mua [days of old] it was the way it was done, never ever did it carry any intent of being sexist; woman hold high ground, but I said before if she wanted to speak for all them that come, she should of said to the kaumatua before hand, I don't think that was an issue, it was merely about getting what she wanted, with complete disregard to the protocol of powhiri.

In some way I think, the Maori that took them there should of explained the grounds and the aspects of the Powhiri, plus the intent of the Kaumatua speaking for them, it was probably fucking ignorant of Maori that took this group there expecting them all to know, but then again I could be wrong, maybe they did know..but if not, it could of been avoided, maybe

 
At 22/3/08 5:38 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

FMG is done to women by women, supported by other women.

Its people from other countries who speak against it - personally I think the UN should go in and stop it.

Women get beat up regularly by men they choose to stay with because they 'love' them. That’s why the police had to change the rules for arresting and prosecuting violent men, if they waited for the women they abuse, mutilate and kill to do something they would wait a long time.

The oppressed often love their oppression or don’t know they are oppressed, but that does not mean other people shouldn’t work against it.

 
At 22/3/08 5:40 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Think that should be FGM.

Which is now being practised in coutries where it was never known before and is not a tradition or 'culture'. Seems easy to spread abuse in the name of 'relgion' or 'culture', those two words make other people to scared to speak or act against it.

 
At 22/3/08 5:41 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

kaua means 'don't"

 
At 23/3/08 2:34 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...
kaua means 'don't"

My bad anon, I saw that it should be "Kauwa"

 
At 23/3/08 4:06 pm, Blogger rangi said...

what's wrong with believing in the supernatural? i'd rather trust something that people have known since the beginning of time, than science that is still in it's infancy.

Take your richard dawkins shit, and flush it somewhere buddy

 
At 23/3/08 4:50 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good thing about forcing primitive sexist beliefs on people is that they secretly begin to hate and despise them to the point where they will actively subvert any attempt

Look how many pakeha children are learning maori, fuck all. Why, because their parents despise the way the culture is imposed on them.

 
At 23/3/08 7:01 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...

Good thing about forcing primitive sexist beliefs on people is that they secretly begin to hate and despise them to the point where they will actively subvert any attempt

It only sexist in your eye anon, surprise surprise, no one force anything on bullock she could of not went to the powhiri, if anyone force anything one her it was her job

Look how many pakeha children are learning Maori, fuck all. Why, because their parents despise the way the culture is imposed on them.

what does this have to do with anything at all; you should address these issue with you govt, it was them that brought Maori back into school system, maybe it was to reserve that fact that an earlier govt outlawed Maori children from speaking Te Reo at school forced them to learn English, but hey ignorance is bliss right.

 
At 23/3/08 7:18 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe women in this country should take a vote:

would you be subjected to the sexist beliefs of a culture which you are not a part of or would you prefer to be treated on the basis of equality.

 
At 23/3/08 8:00 pm, Blogger Hated By Most said...

Anonymous said...
Maybe women in this country should take a vote:

would you be subjected to the sexist beliefs of a culture which you are not a part of or would you prefer to be treated on the basis of equality.


vote might help, I guess, muster some support, but I doubt if it will do a dam thing actually, the crown wont force Maori tradition to change, as they are obiligated to protect Maori Rangatiratanga as stated, if women want to speak they can, no one will stop that at all. But in this case Bullock should of said this before, you will probably find they would of accommodated her, or explained she couldn't and for what reason. This is a stupid argument, its sexist because she [Bullock] wanted to sit on the paepae, shit I want to ride in the car with the Queen on her next visit, but because I wont be allowed due to protocol, does that mean shes racist and sexist.. No? Yes? maybe? Some food for thought huh.

 
At 23/3/08 9:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The main issue here is that maori cultural practices have not caught up with the modern world in terms of equality, democratic ideals and a focus on the individual over the collective.

It appears to be very demeaning to women to have their rights of equal treatment violated just to uphold someone else's rights.

Maybe a solution would be to have two ceremonies and let people chose which one they want to attend.

It seems like an adequate compromise.

 
At 23/3/08 9:33 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe a good compromise, would of been for Bullock to communicated with the people heading the powhiri, so that her intentions were known before they arrived, needless to say communication is a beautiful thing, I think this became a fuss, only when she got there.

I agree with hated, if anyone forced anything on bullock it was her job; I don't see that Maori force anything on bullock, they were following there own tradition, surely their were other women present that weren't offended by the protocol.

Personally I think she was just trying to get her own way, for what purpose? who knows.

 
At 23/3/08 10:18 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Damn these upperity women who think they are.

Those Saudi Arabians have the right idea banning women from driving, having them walk behind their men and flogging them if they are caught in public exposing their wrists or ankles from beneath the black all embracing sheets they are required to wear in the hot middle eastern sun.

Now thats what I call some sensible cultural practices.

 
At 24/3/08 1:52 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Then I guess it cant be to worst if we just keep the women in white culture then; Tell them to Cook, clean and stay at home, make babies wash the dishes, wash the clothes and look after the kids and stay out of her husbands way, Oh and lets not for get ask the husbands permission for everything. While the husband makes the money and has the last say...

yes sounds like a winner.

 
At 28/3/08 3:36 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Then I guess it cant be to worst if we just keep the women in white culture then

Man what a fucking idiot. Women are FAR more liberated in "white culture" i.e. white western countries than any where else on earth.

Tell them to Cook, clean and stay at home, make babies wash the dishes, wash the clothes and look after the kids and stay out of her husbands way
What are you - Archy Bunker?Is this how you treat the women in your family? Still stuck in the 50's?
No body I know treats their mother/wife/girlfriend like this, perhaps you live in some forgotten nazi bogan community or something.

 

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