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Wednesday, September 27, 2006

Israeli Justice


Someone help me out with this, perhaps one of those self-righteous Israel supporters – how does dropping a million cluster bomblets on civilian areas in Southern Lebanon by Israel not amount to a war crime?

This from BBC

Up to a million cluster bomblets discharged by Israel in its conflict with Hezbollah remain unexploded in southern Lebanon, the UN has said. The UN's mine disposal agency says about 40% of the cluster bombs fired or dropped by Israel failed to detonate - three times the UN's previous estimate. It says the problem could delay the return home of about 200,000 displaced people by up to two years. The devices have killed 14 people in south Lebanon since the August truce. The manager of the UN's mine removal centre in south Lebanon, Chris Clark, said Israel had failed to provide useful information of its cluster bomb strikes, which could help with the clearance operation. Last month, the UN's humanitarian chief, Jan Egeland, accused Israel of "completely immoral" use of cluster bombs in the conflict. Israel says all its weapons and munitions, as well as their use, comply with international law.

Oh and while we are asking questions – how is this beating up mentally ill kids justifiable?



While media attention is elsewhere – Israel has stepped up its attacks on Palestinian land, last week the BBC reported on an IDF launched attack on Um al-Nasr to ‘capture terrorists’. During this raid the IDF destroyed and demolished homes…

When the villagers gathered under a guava tree to tell their story, Subhiya Mouamr's son, Riziq sat among them. He has a mental disability, and he does not hear or speak well His relatives say that the first they knew of the Israeli raid was the sound of Riziq screaming in the night. His sister, Leila thought that a fight had broken out with the neighbours. She said she rushed out to find Riziq being beaten by soldiers. Above his blackened eye a large plaster still covers a wound. His family believes that Riziq may have lashed out at the troops. "I asked them what they wanted with him - saying that he's sick," said Leila. "They told me to shut up." Then Leila said the soldiers opened fire on two other relatives racing to the scene.

The IDF have killed 200 Palestinians in the past 3 months, how is this in any way justifiable?

33 Comments:

At 27/9/06 11:36 am, Anonymous Zion said...

They are stressed and have had upbringings troubled by constant threats by their neighbours. We should feel compassion for them...perhaps rather than dropping cluster bombs they could have dropped lumps of concrete...

 
At 27/9/06 11:39 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

my name is Sione. fuk the Israelis. Guess what, those cluster bombs have "Made in the USA" written on them. George "the bitch" Bush's gift to little kids in Lebanon. fuk Amerika.

 
At 27/9/06 11:41 am, Anonymous Semisi H said...

Does that include the arab Israelis Sioni? Or just the jooos?

 
At 27/9/06 1:06 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

just the jooos, 'cause they're racists, unlike the israeli arabs.

 
At 27/9/06 1:32 pm, Blogger bomber said...

...
sigh - and not a word about beating up mentally ill children, just sly Anti-Semitic comments

 
At 27/9/06 2:04 pm, Blogger Blair said...

"Mentally ill children" describes just about every Arab Muslim male I've ever seen on television.

One day, when they grow up, we might have peace in the Middle East.

 
At 27/9/06 2:20 pm, Anonymous Jimmy said...

Hey people, it's the return of Blair the Bigot.
Got any new xenophobic comments to make Blair the Bigot?
I posted up that link to show that Brash did intend to take us to war in Iraq.
Have any comment to make on that Blair the Bigot?

 
At 27/9/06 2:46 pm, Anonymous t w-newman said...

The Israelis and Palestinian problem would be solved with restorative justice and a family counselling meeting.

 
At 27/9/06 2:47 pm, Anonymous S Man said...

You sure we don't have any troops serving in Iraq Jimmy? How sure?

 
At 27/9/06 2:49 pm, Anonymous a. benjamin said...

The Arabs living around Israel are lucky Israel even allows any ot them to live, what with all the efforts to destroy Israel and kill Israelis over the years. Israel is an island in a sea of hostility. How should we defend ourselves?

 
At 27/9/06 3:42 pm, Blogger karlos said...

bomber,

The comments were anti-Israeli / anti-jewish, not anti-semitic.

Many Mulsims, Christians, Syrians, Lebanese and other Arabs consider themselves Semites.
Why are you confusing anti-racist (anti-Israeli) sentiment with anti-semiticism?

 
At 27/9/06 3:48 pm, Blogger karlos said...

a.benjamin,

Given that Israel has evicted a huge portion of the Arab population from their homes in Israel, it is lucky that it has not been destroyed.

Your queston about how to defend yourself is helpful, and was answered by tw-newman above.
"with restorative justice and a family counselling meeting."
Peace is in Israel's hands, but it choose war instead.

 
At 27/9/06 3:53 pm, Blogger bomber said...

...
Grin - thank you Karlos, point taken and I think you are right about the peace being in Israels hands

 
At 27/9/06 5:01 pm, Blogger karlos said...

oh, and about the mentally disabled child being beaten by Israeli troops.
This appears to be so common that people probably don't know what to say about it.

Israel's military has a regular practice of abusing Palestinians, bombing Palestinians, destroying Palestinian homes, building Jewish-only settlements on top of destroyed homes, encroaching on 'Palestinian' land, annexing large portions of Palestinian land, violating the soverignty of Lebanon and Syria.

The beating of a child almost seems trivial from their perspective.

 
At 27/9/06 10:27 pm, Anonymous billy bob said...

blair:
"Mentally ill children" describes just about every Arab Muslim male I've ever seen on television."

Get rid of the television. It'll bend your brain bro. Travel. All Americans ain't like Bush or those cats from "Dallas" or even "Oprah".
You gotta get out more.

 
At 27/9/06 10:32 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

a. benjamin:

121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
1,084 Israelis and 4,126 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,563 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.


Reckon you're right. Lucky there's any Arabs left in the neighbourhood.

 
At 27/9/06 11:30 pm, Blogger Blair said...

Billy Bob, I would love to believe that there are male Arab Muslims out there who believe in peace, respect Israel's right to exist, don't go shooting guns in the streets or pretending Red Cross ambulances were blown up for the mass media. Unfortunately, if these people exist, they are being awful quiet. Or they are in the minority. Given Hamas's ability to win elections, I would suspect the latter.

Until these people get their shit together and genuinely strive for peace in the Middle East, I will continue to regard them as the spoilt brats they are.

 
At 27/9/06 11:43 pm, Blogger sagenz said...

bomber this has to be a war crime. stupid dumb fucks. modern day salting the earth.

It is very very difficult to support israel when they do shit like this

 
At 27/9/06 11:51 pm, Anonymous billy bob said...

Blair

Guess you didn't read Anonymous post above yours. Reckon them Israelis is firing some guns in the street too. Lot more Arabs getting deprived of their right to exist than them.

 
At 28/9/06 12:09 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another wonderful example of how Israel is making new friends! Olmert's promise of a 'permanent border' is not going to do anything for Israel which will still be in the hotbed of war and an enraged environment that is Israel's on doing.

Sagenz, it's very difficult to defend Israel fullstop. If you know the history well enough, that is.

-Anti-Flag.

 
At 28/9/06 8:50 am, Blogger Mark said...

I don't get what the IDF was trying to achieve with these bomblets in relation to repelling Hizbollah.
However, neither do I get comments such as Anti-Flags above saying how "it's very difficult to defend Israel fullstop". If the Arabs were poor little innocents were wern't full of such hatred, bigotry and indoctrinated violence, I would agree. But I don't. There is too much evidence showing that the Arabs can be real nasty fuckers (as well as the IDF):
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/patext1.html

http://www.adl.org/international/lfe/lfe_01_2002.asp

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/71199p-66134c.html

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-tossavainen-f05.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

http://www.pmw.org.il/KAJ_eng.htm
http://www.masada2000.org/Who-Us.html

etc etc

I feel that you cannot take sides in this issue because it is not simply about oppression. It is about hatred of Jews, hatred of Arabs, evil beliefs, dehumanisation from both sides. Why the left love the Arabs and why the right love the Jews is utterly beyond me.

 
At 28/9/06 9:23 am, Blogger Brewerstroupe said...

Mark:
"I don't get what the IDF was trying to achieve with these bomblets".

A close look at Israel's actions throughout the past 60 years show a consistent pattern. They have made their border areas unihabitable by anyone but hardened militants. The IDF then moves in to "keep the peace" and eventually, when the rest of us have forgotten the original incursion, the territory is absorbed into Israel by way of "settlement".

Israel has increased it's landholding from 50% to 78% of greater Palestine in this way since Partition.

The cluster bombs are consistent with this policy but incomprehensible by any other rationale.

It is very important to consider all sources but I must point out that most of the urls you have posted lead to Israeli propaganda sites. Statistics such as those posted by Anonymous above inspired me to dig a little deeper and I was shocked at what I found. The results are posted on my blog where I describe my jouney from avid Israel supporter to dissenter.

Here are a few that have influenced my thinking. Note that they are Israeli sources.
http://www.btselem.org/English/OTA/
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_684.shtml
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1152991173
http://www.labournet.net/world/0209/pappe1.html

 
At 28/9/06 11:28 am, Blogger Mark said...

Are you saying that the sites I quoted are false?

 
At 28/9/06 11:50 am, Blogger Brewerstroupe said...

Just subject to spin. jewishvirtuallibrary is the official rewrite of history from the Zionist perspective and is demonstrably propagandist.

I would like you to consider the links on my blog. I have tried to quote only sources that are non-partisan - human rights groups and the like. I tend to think that historians like Pappe, Benny Morris and Oz are worth attention as they are Israeli, have good credentials, yet they do not follow the official Zionist line.

What impresses me most are facts like the relative casualty figures, the increment in Israel's territory, the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank and the sowing of cluster bombs in Lebanon. Oddities that just don't fit with Israel's self proclaimed innocence.

 
At 28/9/06 3:20 pm, Blogger Mark said...

The AICE describe themselves as non-partisan. If there is bias, it is no more biased than jewishvoiceforpeace.org, which consists almost entirely of anti-Israel content. Just because it is written by a Jew and has the word "peace" in the title does not mean that it doesn't have its own inherent bias or prejudice.
I suppose the best source for non-emotive information about this matter is still Wikipedia.

 
At 28/9/06 3:33 pm, Blogger karlos said...

I thought this was relevant to brewers notes on Israeli expansionist practices.

"Israeli army sabotaged the water pumps on the (Wazzani) river last week and installed a pipe to pump hundreds of cubic meters to Israel".

"Israeli workers and civilians have been repairing water pipes in the nearby village of Ghajar."

Source: http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/09/lebanon_accuses.php

The annexation of Ghajar: http://dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=75735

There was much conjecture that one of the motives for the Israeli invasion was for the water of the Litani river. Given that failed, they've taken what they can from the Wazzani river.
Now it is interesting that at the same time, they have 'annexed' the village of Ghajar.

 
At 28/9/06 8:03 pm, Blogger Brewerstroupe said...

Mark.

What did it for me was a study of the maps. I had thought that the "Settlements" were probably a good thing - integration. My jaw dropped when I opened this page:

http://www.mideastweb.org/thefence.htm

...and saw the extent of the land grab. You have to scroll down to the bottom of the page.

I was confronted with another oddity.
Israel constantly complains that the Palestinians are fanatical terrorists yet they have established settlements throughout the West Bank. Not along the border. Right through the length and breadth of it.
Who, in their right mind, would go and live in a fanatical enemy's territory?

Then I discovered that the Israeli Government subsidises people to do so. (Incidently, this is against the Geneva Convention.)

If you are seriously interested in this question, go to my blog and follow the first few pages in chronological order. (I.E. you have to start with "Epiphany" and read from there). I don't ask that you take anything on trust. Follow the links and question everything.

I am a fifth generation Kiwi carpenter, old hippie academic turned turned tradesman who had an argument with a friend about Israel, did some research and had his head completely turned around. I don't ask you to trust me. I ask only that you give the alternative point of view a fair hearing.

jewishvoiceforpeace represents the dissenting voice in Israeli politics. It is therefore anti-Zionist, not anti-Israel. It is important to understand the difference. I do admire Israel's tolerance of dissent although they use the rubber bullets a little too frequently for my liking. Nothing I say should be taken as anti-Israel or dismissive of Israel's right to exist. My sights are set on the old guard Zionists who, like Bush and the neo-cons, maintain political power through the manipulation of fear and the demonization of the dissenting voice.

 
At 29/9/06 9:21 am, Blogger Mark said...

Cheers. I'll check out your website

 
At 29/9/06 9:54 am, Blogger Brewerstroupe said...

Appreciate it. I think you will be the first to do so!! Most seem to prefer to raise their voices here.
You have to go back into the archive to start with "Epiphany".
Feel free to comment.

 
At 30/9/06 10:51 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brewer, can i have the link to your blog? Cheers.

-Anti-Flag.

 
At 1/10/06 11:28 am, Blogger Brewerstroupe said...

Anti-Flag

Just click on my username or highlight "tumeke" and substitute "brewerstroupe"

Happy days.

 
At 5/10/06 12:33 pm, Blogger bomber said...

...
And of course the simple conclusion of 'ISRAEL SHOULDN'T BE IN FUCKING PALESTINE AT ALL' never gets brought up much does it

 
At 5/10/06 8:24 pm, Anonymous Keith said...

“A soldier who fired 155mm artillery shells delivering cluster bombs told Haaretz that he was ordered to "flood" the area with these bombs, without having a specific target. A commander of a Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) told Haaretz that his order was to "saturate the area." These statements were published in stories by Meron Rapoport on September 8 and 12. More than a million cluster bomblets were dropped in southern Lebanon. Each M-26 rocket fired by an MLRS contains 644 cluster bomblets, capable of covering an area the size of a football field.

 

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