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Saturday, July 22, 2006

The Students 4 Justice in Palestine Day of Protest

I’ve just come back from the Protest action aimed against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon & its systematic destruction of Palestine and its people, which was held in Aotea Square at 1pm. I was a spokesperson at the rally, and have printed my speech at the bottom of this post.

I’ve watched the protest movement in this country get bullied and knocked around by the cops of recent, but today there was a change. For the first time in a long time, the Cops were the ones who were pushed and frightened. I’m sure you will see the News and the anti-protest spin they will screen, and while I don’t support beating the Police up, I must admit there was some satisfaction to finally see the bullies get pushed back for once. Today there was a real anger at what America is allowing Israel to get away with in the Middle East, and peoples hero Simon Oosterman scaled the American consulate, pulled down the American flag and replaced it with the Palestinian flag. The Police went nuts, and there was an intense fight between Police and protestors as the Police attempted to arrest Simon, who managed to escape.

Today the protest movement pushed back. If unjustifiable events continue overseas, expect to see more anger on our streets. Oh and a note to the Police, the brutality you have managed to get away with over the last 2 years towards the protest movement will not be tolerated any longer. Today push came to shove, and you got shoved.

Here was what I had to say:

“I’m here today to say that what Israel is doing in Lebanon and Palestine is unacceptable. Self-defense is no justification for the military escalation Israel has embarked upon. Our critics will say that we don’t care about Israeli casualties, that is not true. I care deeply about any human being who is hurt, but I can not compare images of Israelis in air-conditioned, plush carpeted, leafy suburbs frightened by random missiles with the opposite images I see of a people living in poverty stricken rubble, in an environment so brutal that strapping a bomb to oneself and detonating it is preferable to the ritualistic humiliation of occupation. I can’t compare those two images and use it to justify Israeli action. It has become sadly apparent that the horrific experiences of the Jewish people during the holocaust has led to an aggressively paranoid culture where the abused has become the abuser. And throughout this the United States sits on the sideline giving tacit support, giving Israel the military hardware it uses to dominate the region and is led by George W Bush who is an evangelical fundamentalist Christian who believes in the rapture, who believes in the Book of Revelations, who believes he has a role in the war of Armageddon in Israel. It is time to use the anger we feel to fuel a voice that can cut through the mainstream babble and yell ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stand strong people.”

46 Comments:

At 22/7/06 3:44 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Those evil Israelis, always starting trouble...wait? They didn't start this trouble? Who did? So the terrorist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah actually started this recent trouble? Quick, better tell Bomber, so he can go out and protest against the real villains!

 
At 22/7/06 4:37 pm, Blogger bomber said...

…………………………Deano, are you really trying to tell me that the kidnapping of two soldiers justifies what Israel is doing? And are you REALLY telling me that Israel didn’t want this to happen? What about the 1996 policy statement “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm?”

In 1996, a group of pro-Israeli Americans – including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser – prepared a policy statement for then-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that proposed a strategy of regime change as the only solution for Israel's growing encirclement and isolation. The main problem, they averred in "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," was Syria, and the troublesome border with Lebanon:

"Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil. An effective approach, and one with which American can sympathize, would be if Israel seized the strategic initiative along its northern borders by engaging Hizballah, Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon."

But this could occur only if Iraq was taken out first:

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria's regional ambitions."

Are you as sure of your facts as I am of mine Deano?

 
At 23/7/06 12:39 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree fully, the main issue is there can never be peace for Jews or America as long as there is no justice for Muslims/ Palestinie / Iraq / Lebanon etc.
The list can go on to many more as defined by US policy over the past 50 years of exploitation and dominance of thirld world nations, support for "useful" dictators, arming some where they play fanatical world police (Israel).
I am afraid the US has lost all ethical credibility. Sadly the EU has been paid off to keep silentas well. Finally the UN has been compromised due to the corrupt funding practices, and appointment of bought politicians.

 
At 23/7/06 1:27 am, Blogger Heine said...

Blah blah blah Bomber. Yes Israel are heavy handed in this situation, yes the odds are against the others. But sho started this little bit of nonsense?

BTW, your actions and those of Unite were shameful and embarrassing. I hope next time you start to rabel rouse like that the cops reply with equal force and you will have youself to blame.

 
At 23/7/06 8:21 am, Anonymous bomber said...

..................................wow Heine what a deep and thoughtful post, I mean how can one really argue with - blah blah blah? Let me get this straight, I point out a 1996 white paper that shows Israel had this kind of conflict on the books for 10 years, with the names of the people involved, the name of the white paper plus the quotes and I get, 'blah blah blah as a response? Well done Heine you have shown the real depth of your intellect, are you 5 years old?. To say Israel is 'heavy handed' just doesn't go anywhere to defend the killings they are committing and you bloody well know it, grow up. As for your wish that the Police beat me up, well I'm the first to say that I don't like violence, and I don't like Police getting knocked around, but I have watched the Police over the last 2-3 years use VERY heavy handed tactics against protestors in Auckland, and I have to admit that there was a certain amount of satisfaction watching the cop bullies get shoved back for once. I'm sure Heine that you are just a bit frustrated with being wrong so I won't hold your comments against you.

 
At 23/7/06 9:34 am, Blogger Heine said...

I never said that I wish that the cops did you over, I just said that anything you bring upon yourself you deserve.

As for you assuming that I am dimissing your ranting with no thought, that's because you have been reading from the same tired old book for years. Nothing new from you I'm afraid. From what I hear, you and your silly mates inflamed this protest and almost got innocent participants injured in the process. And that is why I don't have any respect for you.

 
At 23/7/06 10:27 am, Anonymous bomber said...

................................Heine that answer just doesn't cut the mustard, 'silly book', and what 'silly book' would that be? If your pissed with me because I believe in direct action so be it, but that doesn't cover your write off of my statements against what Israel is doing. And I think your counter shows the problem, those who are pro Israel ARE embarrassed by Israels naked aggression, it is something you can't defend, but you hate agreeing with us 'lefties'. You gotta swallow that pride, it'll fuck with you, it's the same beef with the growing enviornmental meltdown - all those right wingers who for years have laughed it off as a pinko fantasy are getting shamed out as the science proves us right. Exact same situation with the war in Iraq, where are all those voices who were supporting America, those WMDs? The old conservative, narrow, selfish way orf thinking just doesn't hold any sway any longer. Oh and for your 'I don't have any respect for you' thing, although I don't know you, and may not like what you have to say, I do have respect for you as a Human Being, maybe that's the difference between us.

 
At 23/7/06 12:04 pm, Blogger span said...

Clint, you weren't there yesterday, were you? Would have been quite the round trip, from London...

You are falling right into the trap the police (and some of the protesters) have opened up - due to the violence at the protest you are prepared to justify the violence of Israel? I haven't been following the issue in depth, but my impression is that Israel are attacking Lebanon to get Lebanon to do something about Hizbollah. However the Israelis, and their backers in the US Govt, know that Lebanon actually can't do anything about Hizbollah, and if they try they will probably end up with another civil war. So, just as the police do to protesters, they use the violence of a rogue group to justify a disproportionate response against all those on the other side.

 
At 23/7/06 1:08 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The is some fine irony to be savoured when comparing Bomber's thinking on the Police vs Protester conflict with the Israel vs Lebanon / Hizbollah conflict. For instance it is all right for the protesters to "push and frighten" a subset of the Police because of alleged actions taken by other members of the Police on previous occasions. But when Israel pursues the same logic against Hizbollah he's up in arms about collective punishment and spouting how "self-defense is no justification". The fact is that Bomber is thoroughly biassed against both the Police and Israel which makes reading any of his posts on those matters mind numbingly boring. The funny thing is that he is apparently too thick to see that it is precisely this kind of blinkered thinking from both sides that keeps the conflict going like the energiser bunny.

Sadly it has become clear to me that Bomber is no Tim. Not even close. There is nothing here that I couldn't get in a more coherent form from NRT, DailyKos, or any of the other left wing blogs I read. So Tumeke is coming off my bookmark list until regular service is resumed.

 
At 23/7/06 2:31 pm, Blogger Theprophet said...

Of course Bomber is no Tim. Did you see that fucken awful TV show he did.What a complete load of shit.
Imagine being dumb enough to put your name to that.

Oh and Bomber, your 'peoples hero' Mr Oosterman meekly gave himself up to the police last night and has been charged accordingly.
So much for the great hero of the left.
Didn't wait for them to kick in his front door and see how he comes. No Brixton boy Mr Oosterman.

I could comment on your twisted take of the Israeli/Palestine/Lebanon thing but anon above says better than I could. I don't suppose you will answer him/her will you?

So Tims in HB prison? I live just down the road. Must pop in for a visit.Might even bake him a cake.

Allah protect us.

 
At 23/7/06 2:59 pm, Blogger bomber said...

..........................................Hold the phone son, you are comparing shove and push on the streets of Auckland with what Israel is doing in Lebanon and you call my thinking blinkered? Dude that is so pathetic it isn't worth commenting on. As for that aweful TV show I did, it was nominated for best current affairs show last year, so someone did something right. I'm still disappointed that you seem to have a problem with my style rather than the substance of my argument which is that Israel is taking advantage of this situation so that they can continue an agenda that seems to point to some joint military action with America aimed at syria and lebanon

 
At 23/7/06 3:45 pm, Blogger bomber said...

.............................aggro aside though, yes anon you are right, NRT and dailykos are amazing blogsites and yes please Prophet if you are able to send tim a cake, let me know and I'll get you put on the vistor list

 
At 23/7/06 5:40 pm, Blogger Theprophet said...

So Bomber - Why haven't Hezbolla just given back the two prisoners to make all this go away?

Although I disagree with Tim in almost every way I would be happy to go and see him in prison and help him out with anything he needs if he wants me to.

A friend of mine has just come out of that shithole after two years and it is not a nice place to be.

Mail me at z.prophet(at)gmail.com
and I'll give you my name etc for the visiting list and my ph # for Tim.
Serious offer.

Allah protect us.

 
At 23/7/06 6:38 pm, Anonymous deano said...

As to your reply above, I see nothing wrong with those strategies. Israel securing their borders? Good work. They have no territorial aspirations beyond securing their own, by the way. Removing Saddam is bad? I was not a fan of the Iraq war, but even an one-eyed imbecile must acknowledge that regime change in Iraq was a big positive.

Nice work promoting violent protest too Bomber, and great work attacking a consulate. Typical mindless reaction to blame America, and replacing their flag with the Palestinians flag? Retarded.

I actually support an autonomous state for Palestine. They deserve it, just as Israel deserve to be safe and secure. You know what one of the biggest ironies is? The election of Hamas to power, and the current troubles, have pushed that back years or decades. Yet it was tantalizingly within the grasp of the Palestinians a year ago. Now it's gone, and it's their own fault.

 
At 23/7/06 8:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Removing Saddam is bad?
Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil - the US is just using iraq, and just because Saddam was/is a pretty evil fellow doesn't mean you can go and put in your puppet regime to exploit the country.
Perhaps you missed the 80s? The lesson is that the US is happy to cosy up to anyone for their own benefit, and when they 'liberate' and spread democracy, thats motivated by self interest too - this isn't the stuff of one side good, the other bad.

 
At 23/7/06 8:19 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Israeli government chose to take the action of killing hundreds of innocent civilians and destroying Lebanese infrastructure. Hezbollah didn't make the choice for them.

Bush has the childish mentality of 'but they started it'. The Lebanese government didn't start it nor did the vast majority of Lebanese civilians. A small handful of Hezbollah members decided to kill and capture a small handful of Israelis. Going to war against an entire country won't eliminate a highly mobile group of terrorists.

The Israeli government should stop attacking Lebanon, apologise and make financial reparations for the damage they have done in the past week.

 
At 24/7/06 5:13 am, Anonymous bomber said...

………………………..DEANO! Girlfriend you didn’t just defend Saddam getting removed did you? A one eyed imbecile would say his removal was good? Oh come on, do we need a fucking history lesson here? Please tell me you were grasping at straws – after a decade of building Saddam up to become the monster that he is (gassing of 5000 Kurds from American supplied helicopters, remember what the US state department said when he gassed them, “Saddam is a force for moderation in the region”) – America built that prick into what he became, and only stopped him after he over stepped his mandate by invading Kuwait. And seeing as the death toll in Iraq is now anywhere between 30 000- 250 000 (we’re not sure because we don’t count their dead for PR reasons) – I can’t see ANY justification for your comments. Don’t wanna bum you out, but your on real thin ice with that call.

 
At 24/7/06 5:34 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow bomber. You must be doing something right to be pissing off so many rightwingers...or perhaps i should say- the uninformed.

Richard Perle's 1996 strategic policy for the Israeli realm for the Netanyahu period and consecutive governments is quite rightly the reason behind this recent 'incursion' in Lebanon. Control of the Nothern border in order to take control of vital water resources is essential for Israel which is running out of supplies too quick for comfort. The oil pipeline to Haifa is another reason. This has been pointed out by numerous people, Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Mike Whitney and so on. Clearly Heine and his type haven't been doing their homework.

This recent event is a direct manifestation of Israel's continous violation of international law. Their continous kidnapping of civilians and inprisoning them without trial is the core of this recent issue. The Arabs haven't resorted to these extreme tactics for nothing. Thousands of civilians are in Israeli prisons, both Palestinian and Lebanese. But we should forget about that and focus on the Israeli soldiers who were 'randomly' captured by both the Palestinian group and Hizbullah. This has no broader context we're told. It's just the usual irrational Arab behaivour. They're all terrorists ya know.

Meanwhile, Condi came back from her meeting with Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas recently. Who the fuck is Abbas?- he no longer represents the Palestinian people. And refused to meet with democratically elected Hamas and Hizbullah leaders. Why? 'cause they're dirty terrorists, and have not adhered to UN resolution whatever the the fuck it is. Israel of course has ahered to international law in contrast. And Israel never commits terrorist attacks we're assured.

As for the protest, i considered it successful. Impassioned people gathered together in unity against a vicious assault on innocent people. The cops were actually quite aggressive that day. I saw them push around children for fuck sakes. One kid was even crying as a result. I shit you not. What did they expect? The scuffle has been blown out of proportion anyway. It was a minor event that the media decided it should only focus on alone. 'cause that's what it does. Loves a bit of drama. The interviews they did with me revolved around the arrest- when i refused to comment, they didn't bother to put it in. 'cause i didn't fit into their story ya see.

-Anti-Flag.

 
At 24/7/06 5:36 pm, Anonymous Tim said...

Actually Bomber, the majority or Saddam's weapons systems were obtained from the USSR, including the Mig 23s used in the attack on Halabja...Untill the fall of the Shah in 1979, Iran was more the Ally of the US, hence the US and British weapons systems, while Saddam was a client of the USSR, hence the T72s, Ak47s etc one sees in the Irai order of battle

 
At 24/7/06 9:38 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi bomber. i met you briefly last year at the ASPA awards, dunno if you remember but i introduced quickly before i left.

I think you need to take a quick check of the facts. People like Clint Heine (whom i know nothing about except his errant opinions), act 'candidates,' and 'budding' politicians are extraordinarily single minded. Business school has indoctrinated many with hardcore neo-liberal economics - i have seen many friends sacrifice reality and morality for the all-mighty dollar, from law students to blue collar buddies. There is literally zero point in attempting to engage with these people, you cannot change their insecure opinions and frankly there is very little to gain from doing so. In life, some people choose to sit on the sideline (and i consider smothering the 'blogosphere' as doing exactly that (im looking at you heine, rick et al)) and some people choose to take a stand. Make an effort. Learn and understand that 300:30 is an overreaction. That in fact, Israeli forces kidnapped palestinians in the Gaza strip, and the Hezbollah actions were in retaliation to this. That it's not ok to brutually imprison people without charge in a century old colonial penetentiary, to purposefully insight violence by disrespecting the religion of others, to spend more on your own weapons manufacturers than social welfare, to subsidise your cotton farmers with $4 billion annually while forcing developing countries to remove tarrifs in search of the 'free market.' To follow the Geneva conventions 'on the whole' (thank you donald Rumsfeld. If the reality of this world makes you want to take snide pot-shots at people taking an active role in voicing their anger, heine, then assalamu alaikum but bro you're better off keeping your thoughts to yourself. YOu should realise by now, you're not welcome. Because you simply dont understand.

I have respect for your understanding of this issue, Bomber. You should disengage from arguments with people like some here on this page, becuase you're wasting your valuable time.

And tim, what you'll find is that the chemical weapons Saddam used against the kurds that incited the first Gulf War were in fact created in Rochester, New York. See Howard Zinn's final chapter, 'the war on terror' of his terrific book, 'A people's history,' for confirmation.

Cheers
T

 
At 24/7/06 9:47 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'You know what one of the biggest ironies is? The election of Hamas to power, and the current troubles, have pushed that back years or decades. Yet it was tantalizingly within the grasp of the Palestinians a year ago. Now it's gone, and it's their own fault.'

ROFL i LOVE IT. 'WE SHALL PROMOTE DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD, THAT IS UNLESS YOU DEMOCRACTICALLY CHOOSE A PARTY OR PERSON WE DONT REALLY LIKE THAT MUCH' (ALLENDE, CASTRO, the SANDANISTAS, HO CHI MINH, Greece 1947 how much time have you got?) That election, which the US pushed for against the advice of the international commmunity, was a demonstration of Palestinian popular opinion. For 60 years they have been held in limbo and betrayed by the international community. They have turned to a militant power via democracy, and suddenly violence is 'unacceptable' and 'ironic.' Really? Oh yes, they blew their big chance. Their big chance at what, exactly? TO choose their political representatives? Tick. To voice their anger? Tick. Now all they need is their land back...

A mindless reaction to blame America, Deano? No. Blame successive United States governments. IF you cannot understand history, then please do not get hissy with others who do. What books have you been reading, to come to your mind-numbing conclusions, brother?

Cheers
T

 
At 24/7/06 9:53 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Israel securing their borders'

and isnt that a nice touch, deano. Securing their borders. hmm. how far north of israel is Beirut, exactly, Deano? ANd exactly what kind of threat are women and children to the borders of Israel?

 
At 25/7/06 3:28 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Beirut is pretty close to Israel actually. You could fit Israel and Lebanon into the North Island with plenty of room to spare.

With Hezbollah leaders hiding in Beirut, Beirut is fair game. Hezbollah must be decapitated. That would do a lot towards securing Israel's border. Some airstrikes on Damascus and Tehran wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 
At 25/7/06 3:55 pm, Anonymous bomber said...

............................The problem with that statement though Deano is that the justification for this invasion keeps changing, first it was to get back kidnapped soldiers, then it was to create a buffer zone to stop missiles, now it is bombing Beirut - I honestly don't believe that there is a military solution to this conflict, I watched Hizbollah missiles being launched today a kilometer just across from the border, if Israel can't protect itself a kilometer from its own border, where is the rational? In this void of reason there are these claims of a wider plan being used, that the rational currently offered is s smokescreen for a much bigger game, the sort of stunts we saw pulled for the rational to invade Iraq - the 1996 white paper, americas own 2000 white paper, and the blog I posted from General Wesly-Clarke. IF and I say IF there is some sort of Neo Con fantasy for global conquest, they only have two years left while Bush is in office. Deano what would you call the 'quitting' line in terms of your support for this Military action? All of Lebanon? Syria? Iran?

 
At 25/7/06 4:08 pm, Anonymous deano said...

The quitting line on the ground would be the Katushya range, I guess. But while the fighting is continuing, Hezbollah HQ in Beirut is fair game for air attack. I was joking about Damascus and Tehran! Not that I have any sympathy for those in power there.

I don't buy into what you have posted about the Neo-Con conspiracy for global domination, but stranger things are possible I acknowledge.

After the debacle in Iraq, the US will not get involved on the ground in the Middle East any further, but neither will or should they condemn a democracy fighting terrorists- Islamic fundamentalists who, by the way, want all of us dead, Martyn.

 
At 25/7/06 4:57 pm, Anonymous bomber said...

.................................Okay, those are the set limits in terms of scope, but how would you feel if Israel and America overstepped that and started shelling Syria? Is that where you would draw your line in terms of support? Back to Lebanon for a second, do you think the attacks on Lebanon will radicalise the population further (the way we have seen in Palestine) or will it make the Lebanese turn against Hizbollah - because I think the crux of the problem is that all Israel is doing is turning the population away from moderation and further radicalise the people, which will only continue to poison the situation. When the British killed Irish civilians during the Bloody Sunday massacre, all that did was stamp out the peaceful resistance to the British and sign up thousands more IRA members. Isn’t Israeli action not only a total military over reaction (you might disagree with that) but more importantly isn’t it counter productive? Israel didn’t win when it invaded Lebanon last time, and the atrocities it committed to just hold the ground they took did nothing for their moral standing. Please explain why the Lebanese people will side with Israel after this.

 
At 25/7/06 5:30 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.geocities.com/sophiainnz/sounds/oneperson.wma

 
At 25/7/06 5:34 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'With Hezbollah leaders hiding in Beirut, Beirut is fair game. Hezbollah must be decapitated. That would do a lot towards securing Israel's border. Some airstrikes on Damascus and Tehran wouldn't be a bad idea either.'

see what i mean? that entire post demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the consequences of actions, of politics, and the inability to distinguish between sensationalist propoganda and the truth.
Do you remember, DEano, that over 50% of the population of the UNited States responding in a gallup poll believed that Saddam HUssein had direct links with Al Qaeda. I see you saying you're joking about 'Tehran and Syria,' but i propose that other people may not be - the international community condemned the Iraq invasion, and the US held off until it insisted the reasoning was suitable (WMD's, unfound by the IAEA or Wilson report) were now a 'imminent threat to national security. I propose that the attempts to link Iran with Hezbollah are the paving stones for further 'intervention' in the middle east, offering the UNited States with a suitable 'purpose' in that country.

 
At 25/7/06 9:47 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Bomber- you raise a good point about whether Israel's actions in Lebanon will further radicalise the Lebanese or turn them against Hezbollah. It's a tough one. Watching a lot of CNN in the last week, I would say both. Now, some Lebanese are Hezbollah, some support them, some oppose them, but few oppose them openly, because that would mean their death. All the other milita in Lebanon were made to disarm but Hezbollah kept their weapons and kept lobbing rockets over the border for the last six years, as well as oppressing many in their own neighborhoods, especially the Lebanese Christians.

So back to your question again. How will Israel's actions affect the mind-set of the Lebanese people? I think this is another reason why Israel must press on against Hezbollah (NOT random Lebanese). Membership in Hezbollah must be seen as a probable life-ending decision. Let me draw an analogy. If I am walking down the street, and I punch one of your friends, you will likely punch me. If I shoot your friend in the head, you aren't going to try to punch me are you.

Anon, as to what point you are making, bringing up how Americans thought the Saddam was linked to Al Qaeda, I have no idea. Be relevant.

And while the link between Al Qaeda and Saddam did not exist, the link between Syria, Iran and Hezbollah is very real. Many in the Arab world itself acknowledge this and make the point that for this conflict to end, Hezbollah must disarm.

 
At 25/7/06 10:24 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

site your source, I want to know who we're talking about, because all i see in the media and from politicians, is the assumption there is a link.

whether there is a link or not, my point is that such a link could serve a certain purpose.

 
At 26/7/06 7:39 am, Blogger Heine said...

Am glad the anon commentators out there feel like they know me.

I actually support a Palestinian state, and am not in Israels corner in this conflict whatsoever.

But you anon commenters knew that didn't you?

Keep up the good work!

 
At 26/7/06 8:01 am, Anonymous bomber said...

..................................Deano - walk me through your rational to 'get rid of Hizbollah' - how many civilian deaths would you let happen before you 'won'? Knowing of course that every Hizbollah activist you shoot dead, there is the chance that another two would spring up - I just don't get how you think your solution can realisticly work unless you butcher literally everyone in Lebanon - and I don't think the justification for mass exterminations can be 'no one is throwing rocks at my house any longer' - again I come back to the point that there is no military solution here

 
At 26/7/06 3:34 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Bomber,
Did you really chant
'Down, down Israel
Victory to Hezbollah
Up, up Hezbollah
Burn down Israel'
at that protest?
If so, this shows the true colors of the peace movement

 
At 26/7/06 4:31 pm, Anonymous bomber said...

....................Deano, no I didn't chant those chants, but yes there were people chanting that at the protest

 
At 26/7/06 4:45 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

wouldnt that suit you well, deano, if you could marginalise 'the peace movement' and put such a movement in a nice little box. If one person says something, therefore that demonstrates how an entire culture spread across generations must feel! Just like everything ANn COulter says, demonstrates YOUR true colours deano? No, i didnt think so...

I cant help but notice you seem to withdraw from any premise that you might be part of a so-called 'peace movement.' THat says something, wouldnt you agree?

 
At 27/7/06 1:17 am, Anonymous deano said...

Bomber, appreciate your honesty.

Anne Coulter- hate her guts. I'm not right wing, anyway.

Anon, sometimes peace is earned the hard way, through war. One way to bring about more peace in that area is to crush Hezbollah and teach the Arabs (most of whom hate Israel, refuse to acknowledge the nation even exists) a lesson that Israel is not to be f*cked with.

 
At 27/7/06 10:13 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Milk and Honey
A solidarity event to support Lebanese and Palestinian communities

Saturday 29th July - doors open 4pm
Dorothy Winstone Centre - Auckland Girls Grammar School
All ages, family event
Free entry
Performances by Op Shop, Mahinarangi Tocker, The Bads, Steve Abel, The Dylan Storey Band, Paul & Meesh Bosauder, Reb Fountain, Unity Pacific, Gasoline Cowboy - with more to be confirmed.
Milk and Honey is a solidarity event, with musicians and artists alike, using their collective voices to share the plight of the Lebanese and Palestinian communities. We hope that we can offer support to all peoples affected by this current crisis and in particular accept our responsibility to act in kinship with fellow human beings in grave need. We have a wonderful opportunity to make our voices heard and hope our collective sound will resonate within the hearts and minds of our communities and our governments.
Milk and Honey will be held at the Dorothy Winstone Centre, in Auckland on Saturday the 29th of July, beginning at 4pm . This event is for all people, from all walks of life and all ages to come together and join in peace and in the spirit of community. As an example of the community spirit felt here in New Zealand it has been heartening how many artists have been so quick to donate their voice. Some of the featured musical acts will be Op Shop, Mahinarangi Tocker, The Bads, Steve Abel, The Dylan Storey Band, Reb Fountain, Unity Pacific and Gasoline Cowboy with more to be confirmed including children's entertainment. Maori Television will be filming the event for a Coast television special.
If you are interested in participating or donating services, please contact:
Event organisers : Media enquiries:
Reb Fountain Summer Wharekawa
0272359024 021 414 555
reb@rebfountain.co.nz summer@visionarytv.co.nz
Steve Best
0275647778
stevebest@hotmail.com

Hey bomber, please pass this on to all your contacts. Cheers.

-Anti-Flag.

-Anti-flag.

 
At 27/7/06 10:20 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Deano, time for you to be honest now. What has war done for the Israelis and Arabs in the past? Nothing. It has perpetuated further violence. The Americans used the same excuse- need to disarm Saddam- when it went into Iraq. Look at it now. Same as in Afghanistan. Both countries are in turmoil. That's a superficial and naive way of looking at the historical conflict between both sides. Nothing is that simple in the Middle East. If Israel wants peace with its neighbours, it should try abiding by international law and the peace settlements that they made with the Palestinians. It should give back the Golan Heights, it should withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, the Sheeba farms -latter located in the north where most of Hizbullah's rockets have fired at. That's not going to happen, of course 'cause violence is the dialogue Israel and the U.S. choose to uphold. The Arab side is merely appreciating the set norm.


-Anti-flag.

 
At 27/7/06 10:29 am, Anonymous bomber said...

.................................Thanks to the anti-flag peeps for that shout out above - you cats need an MC for the night or anyone speaking? Let me know

 
At 27/7/06 1:04 pm, Anonymous deano said...

Anti-flag anon dude,

You fail to understand history. Israeli victories in the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War kept the state of Israel in existence. Not only did Israel keep their nation alive by surviving the onslaught of four combined nations, but they also proved their superiority on the battlefield.

Iraq is a giant debacle and I was against it, but Afghanistan? Al Qaeda smashed and the Taliban removed from power was a bad thing? Afghanistan still has some troubles, but would you rather have the Taliban in power? Women horrifically oppressed, no freedom of religion, all-non muslim culture, literature, all music, all destroyed? That is the problem with some of you on the extreme left, afraid to break any eggs to get done what has to be done.

 
At 27/7/06 3:43 pm, Anonymous bomber said...

................................................Deano - let's not forget with the previous wars, those had occurred within a couple of decades of the creation of Israel, when the fury of the Plaestinians was still pretty raw and some would argue understandable - I don't think you can hold the Israeli victory up as moral highground to launch debates off.

As for Afghanistan - come on Deano, the day after September 11th Rumsfield was talking about attacks on Iraq, Afghansitan HAD to be invaded if Bush Inc. was going to be able to invade Iraq and you bloody well know it, NOT to mention the Oil Pipe line the Americans have wanted built in Afghanistan since the 1990s. To suggest the Marines are fighting a war for feminisim in afghanistan would be funny if it wasn't actually part of the argument America uses to defend its presence in Afghanistan. IF America cared so much about Afghanistan, why did they simply walk away at the end of the Afghanistan war with the Soviet Union? Why leave Osama Bi Laden with all those other crazies armed to the teeth with no chance to rebuild the country? The Taliban only came to power because the CIA trained warlords ran amoke in the country! It's a bit rich to be preaching about how great America is in Afghanistan when they were instrumental in that countries recent downfall!

 
At 27/7/06 5:43 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bomber, i'll email Steve to let him know you're keen on speaking. Thanks bro.

Deano, actually, the Yom Kippur war crushed Israel's invincibility- brought about in the staggering victory of the 1967 war. It was considered a failure in the eyes of most Israelis because of the surprise attack. It serves as a reminder Israel can arm itself to the teeth, but it'll always be vulnerable. It is a spitting example of how the military option is flawed and has done nothing for both sides.

Afghanistan: Deano, clearly it is you who isn't aware of history. I assure you, being from the country and having family still living there- the American invasion has done nothing for the Afghan people. The Taliban have not been eliminated. In fact, a good number of them have joined the rest of the Karzai stooges in government. The government that has a membership of the country's war criminals. You want to talk about the oppression of women? How convenient for the US government to attach the atrocities against women to the Taliban alone. The Northern Alliance committed far worst crimes against women, and the Afghan people. Not saying the Taliban didn't. But the Northern Alliance were pro-U.S. So their crimes were ignored and their oppression accepted. Even when thousands of Taliban members who surrendered themselves were slaughtered. Just like Saddam's crimes against the Iraqis were ignored for decades on end until it was convenient for the Americans to 'liberate' the victims when it suited their agenda. Justice is a fallacy for both people. And let me tell you one thing, the Iraqi and Afghan people have not forgotten America's betrayal.

-Anti-Flag.

 
At 30/7/06 2:22 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"peoples hero Simon Oosterman"? wtf? LMAO.

 
At 31/7/06 10:40 am, Anonymous ToxicRabbit said...

Thanks to TV1 I found your blog. Very interesting!
To fully understand the issues in the Middle east we need to go back to the inception of the state ofIsrael. Most of the land there was stolen from the indigenous native population. Many Palestinian refugees still have the title deeds and keys to their properties that they were violently evicted from. These people need to be fully compensated for their loss. That would go a long way toward settling the differences there.
We also need to understand that to call Israel a 'Democracy' is a misnomer Israel is a [i]Theocratic Republic[/i] not a democracy!
Lebanon is a democracy ( albeit a flegling one) and so is Palestine.
The problem with democracies is that they don't always do what we want them to do.
An army is there to fight battles and the occasional wars -- it's not a Police force. They are not equiped nor trained to be policemen. When we have anti-social behaviour we don't send in the army. Israel sending in the army to Lebanon was foolish to an extreme as it won't stop Hesbo'llah. That organisation has too much support and the attacks on Lebanon's infrastructure only succeeds to mobilise more support for them.
We also need to remeember that the French and Dutch resistance during WW II were 'Terrorists/Insurgents' too. It just depends on which side of the fence you are on.

 
At 31/7/06 2:54 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Haven't we all just had enough of the constant images on our televisions and in our newspapers of these fanatics on both sides. Life seems to be cheap to both sides with neither willing to give even an inch.
I am getting desensitized to the bloodshed from both sides and now opt to change the tv channel. Enough already !

 
At 1/8/06 3:47 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fuck israel

Fuck the USA

rise Palestine! rise Hizb ALLAH!!!

 

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