For Sale: Symbol of disgrace
"Seeing as Trade Me has shut the auction down, we will do one on his behalf and present him with the highest bidder's contact details" - Mr Bradbury & Mr Selwyn.
It's just another failure to communicate and reactionary nonsense. Pakeha have failed to see the event through Maori eyes it seems from the official response.
If a native of his own tribe lets off a ceremonial round or two at the reception of a foreign delegation to show how they are in a technical civil war situation as regards the terms of their own sovereignty and the genocidal policies of the past that have never been resolved then why would a Pakeha judge think that the use of a firearm is then completely inappropriate and could have no lawful purpose? Would a Pakeha really be so uptight and uncool enough to insist on using blanks and pretending that's the reason why he should be punished?
And yet no one at the time, no-one thought of even laying a complaint? A right-wing conservative politician laid the complaint after baiting the dopey Police Minister in Parliament - who said not only should he lay a complaint - but that he was sure there would be a conviction! The whole thing is outrageous.
The Crown Courts will not recognise Maori customary law as valid or defer or have them taken into account in any way in Te Rohe o Tuhoe - that was the outcome of the case.
A Maori defence like: " To dictate protocol as a guest is rudeness." and "The God of War has dominion over the God of Peace outside of the Wharenui" and talk of English rights and customary law apparently means nothing to the District Court. What have we learned from this and my own sedition trial:
* The Crown will prosecute people they consider ought to be viewed as bone fide enemy (of the Crown)
* Crown cannot tolerate to be told to their face that they are wrong.
* The words and display themselves become unlawful to the Crown.
* Marae justice/Maori justice is not appropriate and not relevant.
* Tikanga on Marae now determined by Crown.
The whole issue was summed up by the TV3 reporter's take on it all:"No one is above the law - no matter who their ancestors were." What he really means is no Maori is above Pakeha law.
Q. Since Tuhoe never signed the Treaty of Waitangi why is Crown (Pakeha) law there at all?
A. By force and under sufferance through years of direct duress.
ITEM:
1x UK designed, Chinese made flag shot by Tame Iti in the course of a display in front of the Waitangi Tribunal on 16 January 2005 in Tuhoe territory for which he was later found guilty of arms offences. Full story: here.Please give your bids and reason why in the comments section.
* Will submit the highest bid to the auction thread:
AUTO-EXTEND: 4:00PM Friday, 14 July 2006
posted by Bomber @ 1:43 pm
17 comments
17 Comments:
NZ$200.00
I better double the original to make it look more respectable. I support any appeal to get this to the Supreme Court if necessary. Iti probably doesn't want to deal with people at the moment - I felt the same way after my conviction. Trade Me are arseholes - they had a police baton used to smash anti-Apartheid campaigners - that was alright for Trade Me but not Iti's flag. He said he only shot the Union Jack bit. Fair enough. Tumeke!
he ahs participated in society, therefore he is under the duress of the law. i never signed the treaty either, doesnt make me any different. and your line of thinking, that just because his tribe didnt sign the treaty makes him above the law is absurd, he is a naturalised new zealand citizen through and through. or are you denying that? perhaps he would like to go back to a land with no law, no protection from each other, a primitive state of nature. no power, running water etc. you dont have a choice as to your involvement in the law, you are born into it as a citizen. do you feel it is baseless action? or symbolic of his anger towards europeans, and for what reasoning. that some of his land that he never lived on or used was taken? cry cry. its over a 150 years later, can we not get over the fact and stop this division in society? are we not one people? why not?
gawd...it blows my mind the ignorance in this country...this isnt our law, this isnt our govt...Tuhoe didnt sign the treaty (not that is has ever been honoured anyway) Maori Sovereignty is just that..."primitive nature, no power, running water etc" Im not even going to waste my breath on that one...go get an education will ya.
excuse me? do you not pay taxes? vote? drive on our roads? you are this country, and you are part of this government. just because tuhoe didnt sign the treaty doesnt mean jack shit. all you are talking about is trivial unsubstantial technicalities. because a, the treaty initially was ignored not even recognised, so that would mean that anyone who even signed the treaty didnt come under its constitution and rule. and i have got an education thank you, *pats law degree*
This may get difficult to comment on with multiple anon. commenters taking different sides.
"perhaps he would like to go back to a land with no law, no protection from each other, a primitive state of nature"- that's what we have now with regards the Crown already - the Crown does not recognise Tuhoe or their systems unless it is purely on Crown terms for Crown purposes. The Crown has stolen as much land as it could get its hands on through invasion, intimidation, threats etc. - that is a fact - so see it for what it is: the Crown doesn't protect Tuhoe, they keep them subjugated to effect the confiscations and the Crown's own interests.
Look at a map of South Africa - see the independent country right in the middle in the mountains that does its own thing with no problem with the Republic (Lesotho). There was a reason they didn't have Apartheid there - they are independent. Now I ask you, anon. commenter who purports to have a law degree, how can it be that a regime as racist and authoritarian as the Old South Africa never tried to impose "one law" for all there and yet the NZ Crown cannot stand even one millimetre being controlled in any way by natives of their own nation? That's even worse than Apartheid South Africa! Even in the USA and Canada natives have large measures of autonomy and self-government that Maori do not have because of centralised authoritarian control of white immigrants/colonists for their interests.
"the treaty initially was ignored not even recognised, so that would mean that anyone who even signed the treaty didnt come under its constitution and rule." - Now I know you're not really a lawyer (at least from NZ).
The Treaty was fully recognised by the Crown until 1877 when the same white immigrant Chief Justice that later authorised the invasion of Parihaka struck it down and said basically that Maori are Abos and they will be lucky if they get anything, ever. Despite later rulings criticising that ruling the NZ Crown acted as though it never existed.
The "trivial unsubstantial technicalities" of which you speak is how colonists have spoken for generations here. Maori property and rights are only "technicalities" whereas Pakeha property and rights are sacrosant - that attitude is unjust and has to change to achieve legal equality. When you are ethnically cleansed and your sovereign entity comes under attack by maurading foreigners hell-bent on genocide and destruction in order to line their own pockets and dominate you - how will you react if I tell you that it is just a "technicality"?
If the future is a jack boot stomping on a human face forever is it only acceptable if the face is Maori and the boots are worn by Pakeha?
so your proposing division for 30,000 people in nz. and that is not legal seperatism and discrimination is it not? the laws and practices you speak of tikanga maori is not so much the action but the punishment. the action in question, discharging of a firearm in a public place is of a risk and a threat to society. how you see a variance in that i cannot see. should we punish him by repaying those at the ceremony 4 times over? also, is it just me, or have i not seen such behaviour at previous tuhoe events. you are trying to mask your negative attitude towards crown soverignty through your view that it was not as simple as just a breach of firearm law, and that it relates to subordinance from tame iti in regard to his acceptance of crown law. anything else is simply speculating and you know that. you fail to comprehend that land lost is not going to be magically returned. and that any further moves towards a solution is further stoking the anti maori sentiment. tell me, what positive use has maori settlements had in the maori community since it has been paid back, and that is not being racist, it is the truth. to put it bluntly, disregarding the treaty of waitangi (because we know how much non influence it has these days) and tell me why we should be promoting division in new zealand society by attempting to treat one individual differently because he feels he is different. tikanga maori has its place, but not in common law. it is a reminant of a past legal system which is pointless to resurrect. current nz law serves its interests well in promoting a positive society. does it not?
so your proposing division for 30,000 people in nz. and that is not legal seperatism and discrimination is it not?
You don't know what I'm proposing and you have lept to the usual simplistic conclusions. Why is it that the USA can have 50 states and each state can have many subsidiary jurisdictions with their own police forces, judiciary and laws and the Indian Territories too - with direct recognition and relationship with the Federal Government - and yet when I say that Tuhoe should have some measure of self-governance and recognition of Maori customary law you say it is "Legal separatism and discrimination"?
the laws and practices you speak of tikanga maori is not so much the action but the punishment. the action in question, discharging of a firearm in a public place is of a risk and a threat to society. how you see a variance in that i cannot see. should we punish him by repaying those at the ceremony 4 times over?
You are ill-informed: no-one, alright no one at the event complained to the police - in fact the policeman at ITi's trial said he didn't have any problem with it! OK. A non-licence holder discharging a firearm is not per se illegal and is not always a risk or threat "to society" (?). It all depends on the circumstances, the setting and the context - that is crucial in determining whether something is inappropriate enough to be contrary to law. Pakeha Bigot Stereotypes watch TV and see a Maori radical being defiant - and that in itself is offensive enough to them - or "threat to society" - to demand some sort of punishment - but since it is on his own marae to demonstrate the genocide policy it seems very appropriate to me. Where else can it occur?
Have i not seen such behaviour at previous tuhoe events
You probably have and that just adds to the context that in Tuhoe territory this is broadly acceptable and even part of a tradition.
you fail to comprehend that land lost is not going to be magically returned.
Why is land retention by Pakeha and the Crown so magical? It can be returned over 100 or more years as some other settlements have included - Maori have a long term outlook.
and that any further moves towards a solution is further stoking the anti maori sentiment.
And hasn't that always been the racists' argument? Don't push to end slavery - it'll make it worse. Don't try to force the issue of voting rights - it's not the right time. Don't mention discrimination - in case they make it harder... That's exactly what you are saying isn't it? If you accept that "anti-Maori sentiment" is any excuse for not doing what is right then shame on you. Nina Simone sang a song called "Mississippi Goddamn" - you should listen to it sometime.
what positive use has maori settlements had in the maori community since it has been paid back, and that is not being racist, it is the truth.
What evidence do you seem to have that it isn't doing something positive? Nothing. Because you don't know. You assume it isn't doing anything because that is what you want to believe - isn't that right? The corollary might be that the settlements should be dramatically increased so that obvious positive change does occur. There are developments all over the place - but like with the Wananga they can be controlled by the Govt. if they become too successful. Many overt things like community projects, insulating homes, kura kaupapa Maori etc. happen outside of or regardless of any Treaty settlement.
tell me why we should be promoting division in new zealand society by attempting to treat one individual differently because he feels he is different.
You are sounding like an uptight Pakeha. Once again: is the USA "promoting division"? is the UK with Scotland, Wales, Ulster, England, Isle of Man etc.? Are we divisive because Tokelau has it's own systems and doesn't even have the Supreme Court in it's jurisdiction? If these things all "promote division" then isn't that actually a good thing? If real democracy means local democracy then we are currently highly undemocratic - so maybe the counter-question should be "tell me why we should be promoting unitary authoritarian government in NZ?" But you say NZ "society" - so by supporting local self-government that promotes division within society itself? You say because he "feels different" - not to the others on the place where this event happened. Remember he is the "normal" one - the average individual - in Tuhoe. You are looking at it from the outside trying to put all of your cultural baggage onto the situation. He did not do this in a "Pakeha" forum. Being treated fairly and in accordance with local law and custom is what everyone should demand.
tikanga maori has its place, but not in common law. it is a reminant of a past legal system which is pointless to resurrect.
That's what all the white colonists and white government officials have been trying to do, esp. after the ethnic cleansing of the 1860s. When you say "tikanga Maori has its place" then it must surely be on a Marae! Do you conceed that tikanga is important in establishing and regulating behaviour on a Marae?
current nz law serves its interests well in promoting a positive society. does it not?
The law is far from perfect. I and many others would like s81-85 of the Crimes Act repealed :) The laws are written by MPs and often serve the interests of the bureaucracy, favoured wealthy and well-connected elites, entrench the status quo to their benefit and are implemented unevenly or discriminatorily. Add to that the historical lies and slight of hand methods to enforce injustices (esp. confiscation) through legislation and then remembering that as soon as Maori (or other subject groups) gain a legal victory fair and square - the Govt. then rams a law through to undo justice. Maori don't want to be second class litigants. The chips are stacked against Maori - and underpining it is a lack of knowledge of history on the Pakeha side.
Well we got there in the end. Scratch hard enough and when argument fails you get to unbridled racism. Helps to be anonymous of course.
Yes Trademe has been gutless in this case. Congratulations on it up. Enjoying your site.
http://kiwiherald.blogspot.com/
Same here, John - loved the Capill story. I'll put you on the blogocracy when it's updated next.
anonymous is a funny beast, changing tack and arguing all over the place with fuck all facts. Sometimes he's a bigot, sometimes he's sensible - that's the community I guess.
In this nation a liberation/resistance struggle is fought against the Crown through legal cases and theatrical symbolism designed to demonstrate feeling within a non-violent framework. Through sedition trials and arms offences on marae trials, the Crown counter-attacks by using its unfair laws where it has advantage to engage the designated enemy (The sedition trial was "Operation: Barbarian") setting legal precedents in its favour as it goes. That is why it is important to appeal those bad decisions before they stick and make it uncomfortable for everyone else who may be designated enemies if the Crown is emboldened. Appeals cost money. What about those bids then?
why is it an unfair case? if iti was allowed to remain un convicted it would set a precedent on the role of behaviour at maori events in regard to the law. as in, is it illegal to perform an illegal action at a maori event if you try to reaffirm it as being customary? since when do tuhoe participate in this sort of behaviour at events, they havent. iti is trying to escape criticism by blaming the conviction on an anti maori sentiment rather than addressing his behaviour as clearly illegal. the law is universal in the fact that the discharge of a firearm in public is illegal no matter what. enforcing that is not anti maori, as it is a conviction used regularly. iti is a derranged and irrational idiot who thinks he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants in blatant disregard for the acknowledged and accepted legal system. just another question, if tuhoe were to be given sovereingty(sp) what positive outcome would it give?
"if tuhoe were to be given sovereingty(sp) what positive outcome would it give? - "Given"!? They haven't even "given" sovereignty to the Crown yet!
Auto-extended bidding to 4pm Friday 7 July 2006.
If you buy that flag, then by hokies, we'll be sitting around the table drinking whiskey admiring the thing in front of us.....
anon. if you don't have the money you can't bid. If you use racial epithets you won't be respected. I don't know why blogger isn't working for you.
You might want to close that italic tag at the end of the post there.
Lyndon:
Thanks - have done that. Also the scroll device isn't closed properly according to blogger - but it seems to work fine so I've left it as is.
Bidding now closed. I'll send off an email. Thanks PQ!
If you wana the cheapest wedding, also request the highest quality , there is best website to go http://www.kanaccasbridal.com/ Cheap Wedding Dresses|Plus Bridal Gowns|Sexy Proms|Elegant Wedding Gowns| Cute Flower Girl Dresses|
There are many discount wedding dress , if you don’t have time to wait t the dress , the discount dress is your best choice , we can ship the dress to you in 7 days
And also there are many kind of good quality wedding dress accessories that help you become the point of your wedding party.
If you can’t find your party dream dress now , please come to us, come there to pick your dream prom dress!
Post a Comment
<< Home