
When Israel invaded Lebanon, they claimed it was because of two kidnapped soldiers, that was exposed as a lie by Seymour Hersh in his New Yorker article which revealed that Israel had been planning the invasion for months and went to the Americans to greenlight it before they used the excuse of the kidnapped soldiers to invade and destroy much of Lebanon and drop 90% of cluster bombs on civilian targets in the final hours of the war. In that war the Israeli’s used phosphorus weapons and attacked a UN post, just like they are doing to Gaza and it also now looks like Israel has used the exact same tactics of using whatever excuse (glorified skyrockets this time) to put into action plans they took months to set up, but this time around the media manipulation by Israeli proxies in the media has been highly refined, just as this article from The Observer highlights….
Why Israel went to war in Gaza
'Are you a target if you voted for Hamas?' Last night Israel sent its ground forces across the border into Gaza as it escalated its brutal assault on Hamas. As a large-scale invasion of the Palestinian territory appears to be getting under way, Chris McGreal reports from Jerusalem on Israel's hidden strategy to persuade the world of the justice of its cause in its battle with a bitter ideological foe
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
The Observer, Sunday 4 January 2009
It is a war on two fronts. Months ago, as Israel prepared to unleash its latest wave of desolation against Gaza, it recognised that blasting Hamas and "the infrastructure of terror", which includes police stations, homes and mosques, was a straightforward task.
Israel also understood that a parallel operation would be required to persuade the rest of the world of the justice of its cause, even as the bodies of Palestinian women and children filled the mortuaries, and to ensure that its war was seen not in terms of occupation but of the west's struggle against terror and confrontation with Iran.
After the debacle of its 2006 invasion of Lebanon - not only a military disaster for Israel, but also a political and diplomatic one - the government in Jerusalem spent months laying the groundwork at home and abroad for the assault on Gaza with quiet but energetic lobbying of foreign administrations and diplomats, particularly in Europe and parts of the Arab world.
A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week, at least a third of them civilians or policemen.
The unrelenting attack on Gaza, with an air strike every 20 minutes on average, has not stopped Hamas firing rockets that have killed four Israelis since the assault began, reaching deeper into the Jewish state than ever before and sending tens of thousands of people fleeing. Last night Israel escalated its action further, as its troops poured across Gaza's border, part of what appeared to be a significant ground invasion. And a diplomatic operation is already in full swing to justify the further cost in innocent lives that would almost certainly result.
Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.
"This was something that was planned long ahead," he said. "I was recruited by the foreign minister to coordinate Israel's efforts and I have never seen all parts of a very complex machinery - whether it is the Foreign Ministry, the Defence Ministry, the prime minister's office, the police or the army - work in such co-ordination, being effective in sending out the message."
In briefings in Jerusalem and London, Brussels and New York, the same core messages were repeated: that Israel had no choice but to attack in response to the barrage of Hamas rockets; that the coming attack would be on "the infrastructure of terror" in Gaza and the targets principally Hamas fighters; that civilians would die, but it was because Hamas hides its fighters and weapons factories among ordinary people.
Hand in hand went a strategy to remove the issue of occupation from discussion. Gaza was freed in 2005 when the Jewish settlers and army were pulled out, the Israelis said. It could have flourished as the basis of a Palestinian state, but its inhabitants chose conflict.
Israel portrayed Hamas as part of an axis of Islamist fundamentalist evil with Iran and Hezbollah. Its actions, the Israelis said, are nothing to do with continued occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza or the Israeli military's continued killing of large numbers of Palestinians since the pullout. "Israel is part of the free world and fights extremism and terrorism. Hamas is not," the foreign minister and Kadima party leader, Tzipi Livni, said on arriving in France as part of the diplomatic offensive last week.
Earlier in the week Livni deployed the "with us or against us" rhetoric of George W Bush's war on terror. "These are the days when every individual in the region and in the world has to choose a side. And the sides have changed. No longer is it Israel on one side and the Arab world on the other," she said. "Israel chose its side the day it was established; the Jewish people chose its side during its thousands of years of existence; and the prayer for peace is the voice sounded in the synagogues."
It was a message pumped home with receptive Arab governments, such as Egypt and Jordan, which view Hamas with hostility. "Large parts of the Muslim and Arab world realise that Hamas represents a greater danger to them even than it does to Israel. Its extremism, its fundamentalism, is a great danger to them as well," said Gillerman. "We've seen the effect of that in numerous responses, in the public statements made by [Egypt's] President Mubarak and even by [Palestinian president] Mahmoud Abbas and other Arabs. This is totally unprecedented."
Indeed, the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, said his government knew exactly what was coming: "The signs that Israel was determined to strike Hamas in Gaza for the past three months were clear. They practically wrote it in the sky. Unfortunately they [Hamas] served Israel the opportunity on a golden platter."
Also crucial was what was not said. Just a few months ago Livni was talking of wiping out Hamas, but that would be unpalatable to much of the outside world as a justification for the assault. So now the talk is of pressing Gaza's government to agree to a new ceasefire. Occasionally someone has got off-message. A couple of days into the assault on Gaza, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Gabriela Shalev, said it would continue for "as long as it takes to dismantle Hamas completely". Infuriated Israeli officials in Jerusalem warned her that such statements could set back the diplomatic offensive.
In the first hours of the attack, Israel repeated the same messages to the wider world. Livni and the Labour defence minister, Ehud Barak, were widely quoted on international TV. The government's national information directorate sought to focus foreign media attention on the 8,500 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel over the past eight years and the 20 civilians they have killed, rather than the punishing blockade of Gaza and the 1,700 Palestinians killed in Israeli military attacks since Jewish settlers were pulled out of Gaza three years ago.
Lobby groups, such as the British Israel Communications and Research Centre (Bicom) in London and the Israel Project in America, were mobilised. They arranged briefings, conference calls and interviews. The Israeli military posted video footage on YouTube. Israeli diplomats in New York arranged a two-hour "citizens' press conference" on Twitter for thousands of people. At the same time, Israel in effect barred foreign journalists from witnessing the results of its strategy.
Livni has suggested that Israel's assault is good for the Palestinians by helping to free them from the grip of Hamas. "She's basically trying to convince me that they're doing this for my own good," said Diana Buttu, the Palestinian Liberation Organisation's legal counsel and negotiator with the Israelis over the 2005 pullout from Gaza. "I've had some Israeli friends reiterate the same thing: 'You should be happy that we're rooting out Hamas. They're a problem for you, too.' I don't need her to tell me what's good for me and what's bad for me, and I don't think carrying out a massacre is good for anybody."
And when the killing started, Israel claimed that the overwhelming majority of the 400-plus killed were Hamas fighters and the buildings destroyed part of the infrastructure of terror. But about a third of the dead were policemen. Although the police force in Gaza is run by Hamas, Buttu said Israel is misrepresenting it as a terrorist organisation.
"The police force is largely used for internal law and order, traffic, the drug trade. They weren't fighters. They hit them at a graduation ceremony. Israel wants to kill anyone associated with Hamas, but where does it stop? Are you a legitimate target if you work in the civil service? Are you a legitimate target if you voted for Hamas?" she said.
Similarly, while Israel accuses Hamas of risking civilian lives by hiding the infrastructure of terror in ordinary neighbourhoods, many of the Israeli missile targets are police stations and other public buildings that are unlikely to be built anywhere else.
Israel argues that Hamas abandoned the June ceasefire that Jerusalem was prepared to continue. "Israel is the first one who wants the violence to end. We were not looking for this. There was no other option. The truce was violated by Hamas," said Livni.
However, others say that the truce was thrown into jeopardy in November when the Israeli military killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid on Gaza. The Palestinians noted that it was election day in the US, so most of the rest of the world did not notice what happened. Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into Israel. Six more Palestinians died in two other Israeli attacks in the following week.
"They were assaulting Gaza militarily, by sea and by air, all through the ceasefire," said Buttu. Neither did the killing of Palestinians stop. In the nearly three years since Hamas came to power, and before the latest assault on Gaza, Israel forces had killed about 1,300 people in Gaza and the West Bank. While a significant number of them were Hamas activists - and while hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians in fighting between Hamas and Fatah - there has been a disturbing number of civilian deaths.
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights says that one in four of the victims is aged under 18. Between June 2007 and June 2008, Israeli attacks killed 68 Palestinian children and young people in Gaza. Another dozen were killed in the West Bank.
In February, an Israeli missile killed four boys, aged eight to 14, playing football in the street in Jabalia. In April, Meyasar Abu-Me'tiq and her four children, aged one to five years old, were killed when an Israeli missile hit their house as they were having breakfast. Even during the ceasefire, Israel killed 22 people in Gaza, including two children and a woman.
Perhaps crucial to the ceasefire's collapse were the differing views of what it was supposed to achieve. Israel regarded the truce as calm in return for calm. Hamas expected Israel to lift the blockade of Gaza that the latter said was a security response to the firing of Qassam rockets.
But Israel did not end the siege that was wrecking the economy and causing desperate shortages of food, fuel and medicine. Gazans concluded that the blockade was not so much about rocket attacks as punishment for voting for Hamas.
Central to the Israeli message has been that, when it pulled out its military and Jewish settlers three years ago, Gaza was offered the opportunity to prosper. "In order to create a vision of hope, we took out our forces and settlements, but instead of Gaza being the beginning of a Palestinian state, Hamas established an extreme Islamic rule," said Livni. Israeli officials argue that Hamas, and by extension the people who elected it, was more interested in hating and killing Jews than building a country.
Palestinians see it differently. Buttu says that from the day the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, they set about ensuring that it would fail economically. "When the Israelis pulled out, we expected that the Palestinians in Gaza would at least be able to lead some sort of free life. We expected that the crossing points would be open. We didn't expect that we would have to beg to allow food in," she said.
Buttu notes that even before Hamas was elected three years ago, the Israelis were already blockading Gaza. The Palestinians had to appeal to US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and James Wolfensohn, the president of the World Bank, to pressure Israel to allow even a few score of trucks into Gaza each day. Israel agreed, then reneged. "This was before Hamas won the election. The whole Israeli claim is one big myth. If there wasn't already a closure policy, why did we need Rice and Wolfensohn to try to broker an agreement?" asked Buttu.
Yossi Alpher, a former official in the Mossad intelligence service and an ex-adviser on peace negotiations to the then prime minister, Ehud Barak, said the blockade of Gaza is a failed strategy that might have strengthened Hamas. "I don't think anyone can produce clear evidence that the blockade has been counterproductive, but it certainly hasn't been productive. It's very possible it's been counterproductive. It's collective punishment, humanitarian suffering. It has not caused Palestinians in Gaza to behave the way we want them to, so why do it?" he said. "I think people really believed that, if you starved Gazans, they will get Hamas to stop the attacks. It's repeating a failed policy, mindlessly."
Israel's use of terror to have its way with Palestine is nothing new.
ReplyDeleteHere, Israeli Historian Benny Morris casually tells of the original sin. Bear in mind that the Arab League did not move until the 15 May and most of the fighting was in October.
Morris: (My book)... is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves….......
Q:According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?
About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls…. we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.
Q:According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?
Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima, in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.
The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70)..... At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall….....
That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.
http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm
How dare Israel begin again the massacres designed to expel the legal owners of this land?
YEAH, 'SEYMOUR HERSH' SOUNDS LIKE AN OBJECTIVE SOURCE AT THIS POINT IN TIME?
ReplyDeleteISN'T THE NEW YORK TIMES "A ZIONIST RAG"; OR SO SAID ANNIE GOLDSON IN FILM AND T.V A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN SHE CAME BACK FROM LIVING OVERSEAS.YOU NEEDED A B PLUS AVERAGE FROM A COUPLE OF PAPERS OR MORE SO YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T HEAR JOE ATKINSON GIVE HER A LESSON ON THE MEANING OF IDEOLOGY/HEGEMONY.
The Hamas Charter...
ReplyDelete"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Ami Isseroff
Yes, the protocols...Any supporters for that hate filled document ?
Mate your big speil I bet that didn't take long to copy and paste all of two seconds?
ReplyDeleteI didn't realise that the kidnapped soldiers story was so controversial/questioned. I thought it was an odd justification to go to war in the first place - hardly a compelling reason, and I was surprised that they got away with it with so little foreign disquiet. But I missed out on the discussion about the kidnapping being b/s. You learn something new everyday!
ReplyDeleteAlso, if the NYorker is a Zionist rag then surely they would be less inclined to show Israel lying about its reasons for attacking Lebanon?
Maybe I'm missing something on that one.
Just got back from my counter-protest at the tennis tournament. I had a hat and originally was holding a sign with "Hamas are Nazis" with a big swatzstika but the Police told me I would have to leave if I did not get rid of it. It was very nice to be spat upon by John Minto and friends for expressing my point of view. I will get my revenge by throwing a water balloon filled with my urine at Mr Minto next time he is protesting on Queen Street (or maybe at one of his union rallys).
ReplyDeleteMuch is made of the Hamas charter by posters such as Ayrdale above. Few people,however, have ever considered the founding documents of the Irgun, Stern Gang, Hagganah etc who perpetrated the massacres described by Morris above. Here is just one:
ReplyDeleteStern gang.
"Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
All the others pledge to uphold the "Zionist Enterprise" which, put bluntly is the recapture of "Eretz Israel", a territory encompassing much of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt.
Hamas was formed in response to the suicidal attack during which Baruch Goldstein took a machine gun killed 29 Muslims at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque, wounding another 150.
It should surprise no-one that Hamas calls for the end of an Israel that was established by terror and has continued that terror down to this very day.
I would suggest that the poster at 11:38 AM support these allegations with some hard Data.
ReplyDeleteJustus Reid Weiner is a mouthpiece for the "Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs". As this organisation is one of the main Israeli Propaganda organs, its information is unreliable.
I would suggest that Brewrstroupe is so one eyed that he just ignores any source that doesn't fit is pro-terrorist agenda.
ReplyDeleteSo, whats new in the state of Middle East affairs,these last 3000 yrs...?
ReplyDeleteThe groups and beliefs change, but the carnage goes on forever - I must admit I've given up worrying about them all.......
Cooper, apreciate your sentiments.
ReplyDelete"use a discredited and meaningless work of fiction to justify their hatred of Jews."
ReplyDeleteAnd this:
"We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man."
....is what exactly?
"Brewer is not being intellectually honest with his unqualified support of Hamas. He fails to see it for what it is: a islamic fundamentalist movement contra to everything a liberal democracy stands for."
Hamas won an election described by Jimmy Carter as the most scrupulously fair and democratic he had ever seen. The U.S. and Israel have declared their intention to wipe out the democratically elected government of a foreign entity. This and the collective punishment being meted out in Gaza are "contra to everything a liberal democracy stands for" so I'm not sure much would be lost if Hamas adopted, say, the Iranian model, where that nation's 40,000 Jews are represented by two Jewish members of Parliament.
In fact, by far the largest faction within Hamas favour a secular state.
"I would suggest that Brewrstroupe is so one eyed that he just ignores any source that doesn't fit is pro-terrorist agenda."
I reject the above source on two grounds. One is that it is a polemic, unsupported by a single example of the things it alleges.
Secondly, it emanates from an overtly Israeli propaganda source. It is about as useful to this debate as a polemic issuing from the German Propaganda Ministry would be to a debate on the origins of WWII.
"He fails to see it for what it is: a islamic fundamentalist movement"
There are Islamic fundamentalist members and supporters of Hamas. They are a minority. Just as there are fundamentalist Jewish supporters of the Jewish State.
Jewish State, Islamic State. Both theocracies, both incorporating fundamentalist clerics and parties:
"The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs.
BBC Tuesday, 10 April, 2001
"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," he was quoted as saying in a sermon delivered on Monday to mark the Jewish festival of Passover.
Rabbi Yosef is one of the most powerful religious figures in Israel, He is known for his outspoken comments and has in the past referred to the Arabs as "vipers".
Through his influence over Shas, Israel's third largest political party, he is also a significant political figure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm
Now. Does anyone care to discuss the proven terrorism used to establish the Jewish State in the Morris interview above or is it just the opinions of propagandists that are of interest?
Cooper, I was at the tennis demo from around 10am til it finished at 1pm.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anyone spitting, but I also didn't see your sign that you said the police wouldn't let you display.
Did you mean that Minto and friends actually spat at you, or did you mean that metaphorically?
I'd be very surprised if anyone spat. Minto was very much into making fairly calm responses to the heckles from the 3 or 4 pro Israeli supporters that had signs and/or made comments (some of which included swearing at us). I didn't hear any similar swearing fromt he pro-Palestinian protesters.
Minto also encouraged the rest of us not to be very confrontational, beyond the speeches made to present the views of the protesters.
UNTIE THE DOGS OF WAR.AT MY COMMAND, UNLEASH HELL!
ReplyDeleteI was astonished to read the guardian and other articles, and realise that my brother who is reflexively pro-israel used all the same arguments put forward by israeli propaganda, new to the issue at the time I still felt that this was a gross simplification backed up by a sense of moral superiority on the part of israel as i saw countless palestinians being killed. however at the time I did not have the necessary information on hand to openly refute his reactionary drivel. Thanks TUMEKE for citing sources and providing me with the info i needed.
ReplyDeleteNice company you keep Brewer. Now we're all waiting for you to tell us that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are zionist fronts.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/010/2007/en/dom-MDE210102007en.html
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/gaza-shootings-inquiry-should-lead-prosecutions
"In fact, by far the largest faction within Hamas favour a secular state."
Seriously, where the fuck do you come up with this shite? Their founding charter calls for an Islamic state to be set up?
As bomber would say you can't make this stuff up but apparently you think you can.
Message of peace
ReplyDeleteTo discontinue war in Gaza let us all entire to conduct movement of peace by on 10 January 2009 on 01.00 GMT to come and remain to camp during 3 day in location which can be reached
To which remain close to frontier of Israel or owning ability to come to that place to be gathering and camp in gateway frontier of nearest Israel.
To which remain close to embassy of USA or owning ability to come there gather and camp in gateway embassy of USA
We are Expected gathering of millions of this people can stops war in Gaza
please help to submit this message to others
http://www.dunia3d.co.cc
Message of peace
ReplyDeleteTo discontinue war in Gaza let us all entire to conduct movement of peace by on 10 January 2009 on 01.00 GMT to come and remain to camp during 3 day in location which can be reached
To which remain close to frontier of Israel or owning ability to come to that place to be gathering and camp in gateway frontier of nearest Israel.
To which remain close to embassy of USA or owning ability to come there gather and camp in gateway embassy of USA
We are Expected gathering of millions of this people can stops war in Gaza
please help to submit this message to others.
Pesan perdamaian
Untuk menghentikan perang di Gaza marilah kita semua seluruh melakukan gerakan perdamaian oleh pada 10 Januari 2009 pada 01.00 GMT dan tetap akan datang ke perkemahan selama 3 hari di lokasi yang dapat mencapai
Untuk yang tinggal dekat perbatasan Israel atau memiliki kemampuan untuk datang ke tempat yang akan berkumpul dan berkemah di gerbang terdekat dari perbatasan Israel.
Untuk yang tinggal dekat dengan kedutaan dari israel atau memiliki kemampuan untuk datang dan berkumpul di pintu gerbang perkemahan di kedutaan dari israel
Untuk yang tinggal dekat dengan kedutaan Amerika Serikat yang memiliki kemampuan atau datang ke sana berkumpul dan berkemah di pintu gerbang dari kedutaan Amerika Serikat
Kami sedang mengumpulkan Diharapkan dari jutaan orang ini bisa menghentikan perang di Gaza
mohon bantuan untuk mengirimkan pesan ini kepada orang lain.
http://www.dunia3d.co.cc
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI strongly recommend that readers follow the links to Amnesty etc posted by anonymug above.
ReplyDeleteThey will take you to articles about the civil war between Fatah and Hamas about a year ago. When you have read them I suggest you read this thoroughly researched article in Vanity Fair which describes how the U.S. and Israel conspired to foment this war:
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
This is very pertinent to an understanding of what is happening in Gaza right now.
A poster above has pointed out that Hamas takes an uncompromising stance in its charter.
That is why it was elected.
Abbas, Dahlan and the PLO are recognised by the Palestinian people to be in Israel's pocket.
The failure of the PLO to oust Hamas as explained in the Vanity Fair article is precisely the reason Israel is bombing Gaza right now. The PLO failed to dislodge Hamas. It is highly likely that the rockets recently fired into Israel emanated from PLO factions.
If the corrupt PLO leadership does a "land for peace" deal with Israel, it will not bring peace because it is far less than the Palestinians are prepared to accept or deserve.
Trouble will start again, Israel will then say that the Palestinians did not keep their end of the deal, they will annex the West Bank, expel the last of the people.
The world will probably say good riddance, never understanding that a massive injustice has been perpetrated.
Breaking news - rockets are hitting Israel from Lebanon. Is Hezbollah opening up a second front?
ReplyDeleteSo what you're saying Brewer is that is is all right to engage in extra judicial executions and torture if you are fighting a civil war.
ReplyDeleteIs that your point or is there another reason why you are legitimising these violations of human rights?
"It is highly likely that the rockets recently fired into Israel emanated from PLO factions."
Wrong, they probably emenated from Islamic Jihad who regard both Hamas and PLO with disgust. Maybe you should support them in their struggle to exterminate the zionist entity.
"In fact, by far the largest faction within Hamas favour a secular state."
ReplyDeleteSeriously, where the fuck do you come up with this shite? Their founding charter calls for an Islamic state to be set up?
The Founding document of Israel calls for the establishment of a Jewish State. Many Israelis are secular.
Personally I don't favour States being based on religion but if you are content to accept the concept of a Jewish State, surely you must also accept the concept of an Islamic state. When it comes to the theology of Judaism and Judaic Law, it is exclusive, containing many bizarre prescriptions applying to non-Jews.
Koranic law prescribes an almost privileged position for "the people of the book" i.e. Christians and Jews - hence the situation in Iran where the Jews have seats in the Parliament allotted them.
So what you're saying Brewer is that is is all right to engage in extra judicial executions and torture if you are fighting a civil war.
No, I do not recall saying that. Israel has had a policy of "targeted assassinations for many years. It is one of the things that I object to strongly about that regime.
If you study the Vanity Fair article you will gain some understanding of who is doing what to whom.
Wrong, they probably emenated from Islamic Jihad who regard both Hamas and PLO with disgust.
I assume that you support the action that Israel is taking. Their stated aim is to punish Hamas for rockets (which, incidentally have killed less than 1% of the Israelis who die in car accidents each year).
Are you telling me that this carnage is being meted out to the wrong party?
Cooper, I was at the tennis demo from around 10am til it finished at 1pm.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anyone spitting, but I also didn't see your sign that you said the police wouldn't let you display.
Did you mean that Minto and friends actually spat at you, or did you mean that metaphorically?
I'd be very surprised if anyone spat. Minto was very much into making fairly calm responses to the heckles from the 3 or 4 pro Israeli supporters that had signs and/or made comments (some of which included swearing at us). I didn't hear any similar swearing fromt he pro-Palestinian protesters.
Minto also encouraged the rest of us not to be very confrontational, beyond the speeches made to present the views of the protesters.
John Minto actually spat at me (on me) after I would not take my "Hamas Murderers" hat off.
Hmmm ... no mention of Rabins memorial in Wellington being desecrated Bomber? You and Tim are really showing your rather unbalanced views at the moment. It's getting a little tiring ...
ReplyDeleteMinto is clearly an oddball. Protesting against a 21 year old tennis player is nuts. If he spits on those who dont share his worldview, well he deserves no respect....
ReplyDelete"I assume that you support the action that Israel is taking."
ReplyDeleteInterest, so you assume anyone who criticizes Hamas to be a zionist or pro-Israeli. You should have left that 'you either with us or against us' shit with Dubya. Good to see you're up to the usual smear tactics with anyone who disagrees with you. Extremists are like that.
This is the same bullshit attitude that the US had toward dictators in the 70 and 80s, they were willing to look the other way and not see the gross human rights abuses as long as they were anti-communists. You're willing to do the same thing with Islamic groups like Hezbollah and Hamas because they are anti-Jewish and not see them for what they are.
Better yet have him necklaced sowetto style.
ReplyDeleteSdm: you're not very familiar with the apartheid South Africa boycott are you?
ReplyDeleteCooper: Stop lying and don't think you made much of an impact today. In fact, you looked like an idiot defending Israel while it bombed Gaza and lost any ounce of respect it had from the rest of the world.
-Anti-Flag.
Antiflag - its not that I am not familiar, its just that I feel protesting against a young tennis player is inappropriate. Why make it about her?
ReplyDeleteSdm: It's not about her personally, which was already explained to the media by Minto. It's about the country she represents. You're using the same argument used during the Springbok tour. This is about applying pressure on ALL levels as part of the political, economic and cultural boycott of Israel campaign beginning in this country.
ReplyDeleteIt is ridiculous to think we can have normal relations with a country on all these levels, when it is systematically violating international law which NZ should be defending.
-Anti-Flag.
The difference I think with the springbok tour is that the tour was bilateral - SA visiting NZ.
ReplyDeleteThe Springboks were representing South Africa. They wore their national colours.
However this tennis player is not here representing Israel, she is a good tennis player who happens to be Israeli. If she was to win the tournament, that would be HER victory, not Israels. If SA beat the all blacks (god forbid), that is a national victory.
So really the two are very distinct events.
I don't know Minto personally, haven't had any contact with him in the past, and can't answer for him with respect to Cooper's comments about spitting. All I can say is it was not in keeping with the demo or Minto's behaviour that I saw - and it was a very small demo, so I saw most of what happened amongst the main protest group. We were too far away to see much of what happened when Minto went to talk to Cooper.
ReplyDeleteShahar Peer is not "just a tennis player," as she claims. In talking to the NZ press she seems to have omitted her part time participation in the Israeli army: begun as part of compulsory service, but something which she seems to have been pretty enthusiastic about:
http://www.shaharpeer.co.il/pages/sitecontent.aspx?id=12
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/20/sports/NA-SPT-TEN-WTA-Tour-Soldier.php
http://joehendren.blogspot.com/2009/01/israeli-tennis-player-enthusastic.html
Shahar is also very much an ambassador for Israel and seems to see herself as such. This is a legitimate focus for a sports' boycott, as happened when apartheid Sth Africa was boycotted.
The demonstration was asking her to join other prominent Israelis who have cricitised, or refused to support the bombing of Gaza; and focused on putting the case for a boycott.
Why wear a Burkha, Cooper? Afraid to show your face?
Also if you read some of the stuff at the links I put above, you will see that Shahar has enjoyed the fact that many people come to see her play tennis and wave Israeli flags. How is that not representing Israel as a player?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous
ReplyDelete9:28 PM
"Interest, so you assume anyone who criticizes Hamas to be a zionist or pro-Israeli.....Good to see you're up to the usual smear tactics with anyone who disagrees with you."
No smear intended. It was more in the way of an inquiry.
Do you support Israel in this action?
Carol: Good point about her military service. She actually CONTINUES to be a part-time soldier for the Israeli military.
ReplyDeleteAlthough she did not mention the above to the media, she did say she represents Israel because that's where she is from. That makes her a representative of her country and a legitimate target to boycott.
-Anti-Flag.
"Do you support Israel in this action?"
ReplyDeleteDo you support the actions of groups who specifically target civilians for death based on their religious beliefs?
Brewer do you support this proclamation by Hamas?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454204.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093
Brewer, don't bother answering any of these ridiculous questions. Typical zionist strategy to do two things: Either to legitimise the violence meted out to the Palestinians or to derail the discussion from the actual issues at hand.
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
Why not Anti-Flag it's a honest question. If Brewer supports Hamas goals then he supports their tactics which are the targeting of jewish children.
ReplyDeleteBrewer and yourself constantly write about Israeli atrocities so we're all interested in your opinions on this tactic.
My guess is that Brewer will avoid the question by pointing to some Palestinian children killed by Israel.
Anonymous: isn't that what you're doing by pointing to Jewish children while you ignore the killings going on in Gaza?
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that you'll blame that on Hamas too. : )
-Anti-Flag.
No where did I say that Palestinian children were not getting killed but neither Brewer or yourself have repudiated Hamas' tactic of specifically killing jewish children.
ReplyDeleteAre we to presume that you agree with this tactic through this refusal to condemn it?
I rather thought mine was an honest question and quite an important one. You have implied that being considered a supporter of Israel is a smear.
ReplyDeleteI am curious as to why that is the case?
Anonymous: It goes without saying that children are innocent and their killings should be condemned, whoever does it, including Hamas.
ReplyDeleteQuestion to you: Do you support Israel's targeting of civilians, CHILDREN? Which you're watching right now on every news screen and reading in every report? Consider the targeting of the UN school just in the past day. And would you justify it as legitimate if it is for the purpose of security? In the other words, the official Israeli justification at the moment.
-Anti-Flag
I'm really just curious as to your stance on Hamas since you seem intent on whitewashing their image.
ReplyDeleteThe question still stands through, do you support Hamas' new policy on killing jewish children where ever they are found?
"two thirds of all Palestinian child fatalities had been caused by small arms fire (from relatively close range), in fully half of the cases to the head or upper torso—the sniper's wound. My statement that "clearly, soldiers are routinely authorised to shoot to kill children in situations of minimal or no threat" has now been confirmed in emphatic fashion—the authority being Israeli soldiers who have committed these acts themselves."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/331/7518/699?HITS=10&sortspec=relevance&hits=10&stored_search=&author1=Summerfield&maxtoshow=&andorexactfulltext=and&FIRSTINDEX=0&fulltext=Israeli&resourcetype=1&searchid=1127601519980_8774&RESULTFORMAT=
Good to see you give an honest answer AF and I would say the same, that killing innocents is not a legitimate tactic and should be condemned.
ReplyDeleteObviously Brewer is wrestling with his conscious with this vexing issue from his attempts to deflect the question.
Fuck I knew Brewer would do that, allow me to quote myself:
ReplyDelete"My guess is that Brewer will avoid the question by pointing to some Palestinian children killed by Israel."
It's not so hard brewer, AF has made the jump. Stand up and sway with me and chant:
"Its evil to kill children"
You can do it!!
I love the interweb, shit like this stays here forever nestled deep in some server.
ReplyDeleteSince Sahar is publicaly known I guess she had to say this but you're not and your silence and avoidance of answer the question gives us a clear insight on what you think about human life.
Congratulations.
We now all know what kind of monster you really are.
Anonymous: So you're against the slaughtering of Gazans then? Considering out of the 1.5 million of the population, just over half are under 16.
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
I have no problem with answering the question. There are no circumstances that permit the killing of children.
ReplyDeleteI could, however, understand the emotion that might drive a man to kill the child of his enemy after witnessing the murder of eight of his own. I believe any court in a civilized country would consider this a mitigating factor.
And this is the real point at issue. The rockets fired by Palestinians have no degree of accuracy. They cannot therefore target children. The munitions employed by Israel are equipped with the latest aiming technology. The British Medical Journal informs us that the majority of Palestinian children are killed by the "sniper's wound". This implies that they were targeted. And let us not forget, Israel has killed nearly ten times the number of children than the resistance.
Now, having answered your question, how's about showing a little reciprocity.
Do you support Israel in the current assult on Gaza?
Do you condemn Israel's killing of over 1000 children in the period Sept 2000 - Sept 2008?
I, personally, condemn the the killing of all Palestinian children, not just by Israel since 2000, but by Irsrael before 2000 and by all others, such as Jordan, at all times.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that many of these deaths could have been avoided, and not all were the inadvertant consequences of military action.
I do not, however, believe that Israel has a policy objective of deliberately killing children.
But I do understand the emotions of a people that have experienced by far the greatest collective injustices and barabrism directed at any single group in humanities history. That these emotions might result in them reacting towards ongoing threats to their right to life in a way that they would not otherwise. I consider these mitigating factors.
Furthermore, I can also understand that the failure to recognise these mitigating factors, or indeed make any attempt to address the ongoing threats to their right to life, or to make even a slight attempt to see the whole picture, let alone, dare I say it, recognition of some of the many respectful actions of Israel in times of war and peace, contributes to this ongoing feeling of unjustified persecution, and only serves to perpetuate the tragedy.
There was a comment on Tumeke the other day (seems to have been deleted) asking about proportionality -
ReplyDeleteSince Hamas has fired over 7000 rockets randomly into Israel in the last 5 years would the proportional response from Israel be to fire 7000 rockets randomly into Gaza?
I'd be interested in peoples ideas as to how a proportional response is supposed to work.
Megan, proportionality is a smokescreen that Israeli apologists have tried using with the exact words you've used. Trying to use glorified skyrockets that steer like a drunk cow and have killed a TOTAL of 15 people (1% of Israels drink driving deaths I think) to defend using laser guided hellfire missles in response is a joke.
ReplyDeleteBomber:
ReplyDeletetell me, how do 'glorified skyrockets' manage to send tens of thousand of people fleeing, as quoted in the Observer article of your post?
Let us look at this issue for a minute. These rockets have been fired into israel for the last 7-8 years or something. Originally they were indeed crude and basically ineffective. Once Israel withdrew COMPLETELY from Gaza, 3 yearts ago, the rockets increased in number, distance and strength. Obvioulsy, despite the (in my opinion, unjust) tight blockade on Gaza, there was no problem smuggling into weapons of increasing firepower. I wonder if there was an proportional increase in the medicine and food smuggled in. I doubt it, as Israel already let that through, but never mind, I digress.
The point is, left unaddressed, and it is clear that as soon as they are able, Hamas will indiscriminately send high payload missiles into the high population centres with the aim of killing who knows how many civillians.
Do you support such activity, despite if being cleary a crime against humanity, a charge you are ready to level frequently at Israel? Would you, in fact, be even happy to see this happnen?
What do you propose that Israel do in order to prevent this? Did you even think of it? Or do you just not care beyond shouting and swearing at the events of the last 5 minutes?
Sigh. In strict military terms, Israel is acting disproportionally. They are raising the stakes to such an extend by saying 'we are coming and we are going to fuck you up'. That may be crude, and you may not like it, but that is what they are doing. Their rationale seems to be that in doing so it may a) destroy the militant wing of Hamas leaving the moderates to run the show and b) encourage civilians to give up the 'armed route' as it is useless against Israel.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is all carrot and no stick, and I am not defending Israel merely trying to understand why they act as they do.
What is interesting is the apparent approval, or should I say, lack of disapproval from Arab states, notably Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia (all of whom have various reasons to want to see Hamas dealt to).
The comments since Brewer and I attempted to highlight the hypocrisy of Israel apologists have failed to contextualise this conflict.
ReplyDeleteFrank: You in particular fail to understand what an occupation actually entails. The Gaza withdrawal was just a civil disengagement, not a military one. Since 2005, Israel has controlled Gaza's borders, airspace, waters etc. That's STILLL an occupation. Those 1500 settlers who were removed in the dramatic fashion that they did were mostly resettled where? In OCCUPIED West Bank. So cosider that context for a moment when you give Israel the high five for doing what is expected of any civilised nation (to abide by international laws).
The other context: Since Hamas came into power, the people of Gaza have been collectively punished with a siege. The ceasefire agreement which Hamas has constantly been blamed for had terms people are forgetting about. One of those fundamental terms which Hamas stressed would be the reason for the ceasefire to work in the first place was to bring an end to the siege. That never occurred. So in many ways, there was no ceasefire in the first place, at least from the Israeli side.
This rocket firing should be put within such a context.
Israel an occupier. It cannot claim defence in this case when it is appropriating Palestinian land and resources and subjecting its population to humiliating and oppressive conditions. It's just logically flawed. So let's stop talking about Israel like it's a normal country, having to defend itself from these random rockets. These rockets are hitting it FOR A REASON. Not because Palestinians are anti-semitic, as many of you would just love to reduce this conflict to. But because of the context above.
The onus therefore is on Israel to end the conflict, abide by international laws and recognise the rights of Palestinians as human beings with a right to their own state. This has NOT happened in ANY of the agreements made with the Palestinians because Israel's land appropriation in the West Bank has CONTINUED and never stopped. If anyone wishes to challenge me on these points, do so, and perhaps then readers can understand historicla and political events that have led to this conflict, and the bullshit that is coming out of the pro-Israel side.
-Anti-Flag.
If its about economic strangulation, why arent Hamas rocketting Egpyt?
ReplyDeleteSahar - you asked for history:
ReplyDeleteBy Larry Elder
Much of the world buys the line -- peddled by the Palestinians and the Arab Muslim world and, indeed, many Western countries -- that paints Israel as the bad "Goliath" that "stole" the land from the "Palestinians."
Israel gave Gaza self-rule in 1994, unilaterally withdrawing the last of its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Hamas, voted into power via free elections in 2006, fought and defeated their political and military rival, Fatah, to seize de facto control of Gaza in 2007. In the past eight years, Hamas has fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortars into Israel -- 7,000 of them after Israel's 2005 withdrawal. With improved technology -- reportedly assisted by Iran -- Hamas' rockets can now fly 24 miles before impact and explosion, thereby threatening, injuring and killing more and more Israelis living in southern Israel.
But why the "disproportionate" response by Israel? Reportedly, more than 600 Palestinians have been killed, some civilians. Set aside for the moment that Hamas' charter specifically calls for the "obliteration" of the state of Israel. And set aside the fact that the Palestinian "militants" fight in heavily populated areas, assuring, indeed encouraging (for PR purposes) civilian casualties.
We turn our attention to the "stolen" allegation.
Israel lies in the ancient Fertile Crescent's southwest corner, with some of the oldest archeological evidence of primitive towns and agriculture. Historians and archeologists believe the Hebrews probably arrived in the area in the second millennium B.C. The nation itself was formed as the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus, believed to be in the late 13th century B.C.
The 12 tribes of Israel united in about 1050 B.C., forming the Kingdom of Israel. David, the second king of Israel, established Jerusalem as Israel's national capital 3,000 years ago. Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for a millennium.
After conquests by Babylonians, Persians and Greeks, an independent Jewish kingdom was briefly revived in 168 B.C., but Rome took control in the next century, renaming the land of Judea "Palestine" after the Philistines, historical enemies of the Israelites'.
Invading Arabs conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) in A.D. 638 and attracted Arab settlers. Within a few centuries, the Arab language and Islam prevailed, but a Jewish minority remained. After a brief period of prosperity, waves of invasions and changes of control followed, including rule by the non-Arab empires of the Seljuks, Mamelukes and European crusaders, before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire from 1517 until 1918.
The crusaders massacred thousands of Jews, along with Muslims, in the 11th century. But soon thereafter, European Jews established centers of Jewish learning and commerce. By the time the Ottoman Turks occupied Palestine in the 16th century, according to British reports, as many as 15,000 Jews lived in Safed, which was a center of rabbinical learning. Many more Jews lived in Jerusalem, Hebron, Acre and other locations. By the middle of the 19th century, Jews constituted a significant presence -- often a majority -- in many towns.
Still, in the 19th century, the Holy Land looked mostly like a vast wasteland. When Jews began to return to their "promised land" early in the 20th century, the desert literally began to bloom under their industry. Arabs followed, coming in large numbers for the jobs and prosperity.
After four centuries of Ottoman rule, Britain took the land in 1917 and pledged in the Balfour Declaration to support a Jewish national homeland there. In 1920, the British Palestine Mandate was recognized. A declaration passed by the League of Nations in 1922 effectively divided the mandated territory into two parts. The eastern portion, called Transjordan, would later become the Arab Kingdom of Jordan in 1946. The other portion, comprising the territory west of the Jordan River, was administered as Palestine under provisions that called for the establishment of a Jewish homeland.
The United Nations, in 1947, partitioned the area into separate Jewish and Arab states along meandering and indefensible boundaries. The Arab world, insisting that any Jewish claim to Palestine was invalid, staunchly refused to compromise or even discuss the subject.
When Israel's independence was declared in 1948, Arab forces from Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq combined to crush the 1-day-old country. They lost. Still, Egypt occupied most of the Gaza Strip, and Transjordan (calling itself "Jordan") held most of the West Bank and half of Jerusalem. Neither Arab country gave the "Palestinians" a state.
The word "Palestinian," as employed today, is a relatively recent term. Until the end of the British mandate over Palestine, in 1948, all inhabitants of the area west of the Jordan River were known as "Palestinians." A Jewish person living in what is now Israel was a "Palestinian Jew." An Arab living in the area was a "Palestinian Arab." Likewise, a Christian was known as a "Palestinian Christian."
Israel won more land after a series of wars, land since returned or offered for return in exchange for peace. The Jews "stole" nothing.
I am fully aware of what the occupation involves.
ReplyDeleteI am also aware of how the occupation came about, why it was not resolved relatively quickly and how this led to the whole dynamic of the situation changing to create the tragedy we have today.
But I am not going to debate these issues with you, we clearly have different intepretations of the roles of the various players in this conflict.
I also am rather desparate for the occupation to end.
I just don't think a move in this direction, as presented by Israel with their withdrawl, to be reciprocated by an escalation in terrorising the neighbouring population, does actually indicate a real willingness to work towards ending the occupation.
Israel maintained a degree of control over what went in and out of Gaza for the reasons that should be all too obvious.
Israel controls the power and water going into Gaza because they supply it. Would you prefer they detached completely and left them to drink the rain when it comes? Because no-one else is going to do shit for Gaza, and you know it.
Frank.
ReplyDelete"But I do understand the emotions of a people that have experienced by far the greatest collective injustices and barabrism directed at any single group in humanities history."
This is unsupported on two grounds.
In the first place, it is simply untrue.
Leaving aside the fact that all Holocaust historians have downgraded the death toll from the iconic 6 million, there are other examples of genocides in history that rival and surpass that of the Jews in WWII. This is not to downgrade Jewish suffering during that period.
However, to conflate the example I gave above regarding the mitigating factor of grief, is entirely inappropriate.
In my example, the response is immediate and directed at the enemy.
In yours, the response is against a third party who bear no responsibility for the original crime and it is perpetrated by persons one and two generations removed from it who have been the recipients of huge reparations paid both in financial and spiritual terms.
This is the argument of a psychopath - I was hurt therefore I claim the privilege of hurting others.
The Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
The invasion and subjugation of Palestine was a premeditated act of War against a largely defenceless people. One of the organisations in the vanguard of that invasion was the Irgun, who offered their military support to the Nazi regime and who carried out acts of terror that make homemade rockets fired at random pale to insignificance, as potent a weapon as the flailing arms of a dying man. In this terror, they were aided and encouraged by the Zionist leadership, including Ben-Gurion, Israel's first Prime Minister. Yitzak Rabin, whose memorial was smeared in a non-violent protest the other day, was directly involved in collaboration with the Nazi regime and also became Prime Minister. Menachim Begin planned and participated in the massacre at Deir Yassin, the bombing of the Hotel David and many other acts of terror designed to drive the Palestinians off their land.
Even if every offense leveled at the Palestinians were true, even if it were the Palestinians who had invaded sixty years ago and displaced Israelis, what is happening in Gaza would still be a war crime by any possible interpretation of the concept.
Only ignorance of the History prevents it from being seen for what it is - the continuance of a disgraceful terrorism designed to eradicate or displace people who, to this day, possess legal title deeds to the land towards which they point their impotent rockets.
The inmates of Gaza own 12,000 dunums of the land upon which Sderot stands, Jews own about 400.
The moral bankruptcy of the pro-Israel faction posting on this thread is made manifest by the total lack of any counter to the facts presented by Professor Morris I posted at its head.
Post script.
ReplyDeleteThe invasion of Palestine was planned and initiated well before WWII. The Holocaust cannot therefore be invoked as a defence.
Incidentally, where are the arms Hamas are alleged to have been smuggling into Gaza. Where are the anti-aircraft missiles that would surely have been at the top of the wish-list?
"This is the argument of a psychopath - I was hurt therefore I claim the privilege of hurting others."
ReplyDeleteWrong. This should read:
"My grandfather was hurt therefore I claim the privilege of hurting others."
The invasion of Palestine was planned and initiated well before WWII.
ReplyDeleteYou mean by the Western powers who carved up the Middle East according to their whims as in the Balfour declaration.
Jews returning to their homeland were not invading, as you so emotionally put it.
The Holocaust cannot therefore be invoked as a defence
Oh yes it can brewer.
Just because you see it as of no significance, and even tried to downplay it, doesn't make it important to the Jewish, and Israeli psyche, and incredibly relevant to todays situation.
Your attitude towards the holocaust, and your pathetic attempt at revisionism, sums up your agenda precisely brewer.
Suprised you haven't thrown up some Irving quotes.
"Oh yes it can brewer.
ReplyDeleteJust because you see it as of no significance, and even tried to downplay it, doesn't make it important to the Jewish, and Israeli psyche, and incredibly relevant to todays situation."
Anyone allowing something that happened to their grandfather to be the justification of present day crimes against someone not remotely connected with that grandfather has only one defence - insanity.
“Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion “the people of the book” who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.
ReplyDelete“We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians
– Khalid Mish’al, head of the Hamas political bureau
“We have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads.”
– Moshe Dayan, former Israeli Minister of Defense, speaking about Palestinians in the occupied territories
Frank
ReplyDelete"As someone said, your Holocaust revisionism is quite disturbing and really serves to say more about your motives than anything else."
Please translate this gobbledegook for me.
You seem to be arguing that I am promulgating a right-wing supremacist agenda - if I understand you correctly (which I doubt)
Please tell me what mass graves of Jews in Europe has to do with this debate? Are you suggesting that Palestinians murdered Jews and transported them to Europe for mass burial?
You seem to be having a bob each way here. We have this:
"No, the Palestinian conflict does not have anything to do, directly, with the Holocaust. I never said it did."....and in the next sentence you say:
"The creation of the (Jewish) State of Isreal, however, does have a hell of alot to do with the history of the Jews being the most persecuted single group in history."
There is an extraordinary chauvinism here inasmuch as no-where do you mention the indigenous people of Palestine.
Do you consider that they, somehow, are responsible for the "Jews being the most persecuted single group in history."
Why is it that they should stand aside and relinquish title to the land that their people have owned since time immemorial?
I am sorry, I just cannot follow the line of argument.
And John Pilger has something to say on the holocaust issue:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21680.htm
Pilger refers to comments by a woman of mixed jewish-Mulsim descent:
Dr. Dahlia Wasfi is an American writer on Palestine. She has a Jewish mother and an Iraqi Muslim father. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic,"
she wrote on 31 December. "But I'm not talking about World War Two, Mahmoud Ahmedinijad (the president of Iran) or Ashkenazi Jews. What I'm referring to is the holocaust we are all witnessing and responsible for in Gaza today and in Palestine over the past 60 years … Since Arabs are Semites, US-Israeli policy doesn't get more anti-Semitic than this." She quoted Rachel Corrie, the young American who went to Palestine to defend Palestinians and was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer. "I am in the midst of a genocide," wrote Corrie, "which I am also indirectly supporting and for which my government is largely responsible."
Going back to the topic of this discussion, Pilger also talks about how the current assault on Gaza was pre-planned by the Israeli government, and justified by provoking Hamas in a similar way to their assault on Lebanon:
Something uncannily similar happened on 5 November last, when Israeli special forces attacked Gaza, killing six people. Once again, they got their propaganda "trigger." A ceasefire initiated and sustained by the Hamas government – which had imprisoned its violators – was shattered by the Israeli attack and homemade rockets were fired into what used to be Palestine before its Arab occupants were "cleansed." The On 23 December, Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire, but Israel's charade was such that its all-out assault on Gaza had been planned six months earlier, according to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz.
The Jews are the indigenous people of Palestine.
ReplyDelete"The 12 tribes of Israel united in about 1050 B.C., forming the Kingdom of Israel. David, the second king of Israel, established Jerusalem as Israel's national capital 3,000 years ago. Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for a millennium."
When did the Muslims arrive. It is JEWISH land. Who are the thieves here?
If the Jewish tribes united in 1050BC and the Muslims arrived in the 13th Century AD, who was there first?
ReplyDeleteThe Beautiful Woman that make Tui's in Timaru?
ReplyDeleteSorry, I got excited and mispelled "Women"! I hear there's more than 1 of them!
ReplyDeleteWhen did you last have a woman Sam?
ReplyDeleteShlomo Sand, Professor of History at Tel Aviv University:
ReplyDelete"But during the 1980s an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the “new archaeology” discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have led the Hebrews out of Egypt into the Promised Land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at the time. And there is no trace of either a slave revolt against the pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders.
Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence, at the time, of two small kingdoms: Israel, the more powerful, and Judah, the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile: only its political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism.
Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest."
http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel
I haven't deleted 12:37PM (two above) and some others to show the extremist opinions that are out in the community. They are noted, they need not be repeated.
ReplyDeleteTim.
ReplyDeleteI suspect they are "false flag attacks" designed to make the pro-Palestinian side look extreme. Can you match them?
The latest chapter in the conflict between the governments of Israel and Palestine is generating loads of media ink – and huge, whopping lies. Here’s a roundup of the top myths related to this war:
ReplyDelete1) Israel launched a preemptive war.
Congressman and former GOP Presidential candidate, Ron Paul, suggested to Press TV – the official propaganda arm of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad – that Israel’s actions were “preemptive”. His logic: Israel has nukes and Hamas doesn’t, so it’s unfair. Look, a war isn’t automatically “preemptive” just because one party was dumb enough to pick a fight it can’t win. I mean, do you want your jihad, or don’t you? This is getting confusing. It also isn’t the first time Rep. Paul has lamented the lack of nuclear power in other Middle Eastern countries. In early 2007, on Fox News, Rep. Paul told me that he didn’t have a problem with Iran possessing nukes. The whole idea of Israel’s nuclear advantage is moot, until Israel nukes Gaza – and they haven’t. If you ask me, the “Zionists” are showing unbelievable restraint.
2) Israel is killing Palestinian civilians.
Press TV says that 25% of deaths in Gaza have been civilian. These terrorists could severely curtail the civilian killing at any time by getting out there and taking their jihad like real men, rather than hiding around women and children like cowards. Hamas’ lack of warfare decorum, and insistence on guerilla tactics when push comes to shove, really isn’t Israel’s problem. Israel is so caring and humane that even in the midst of war, they paused their military efforts to provide civilians with aid.
3) Hamas was just minding its own business.
Besides having fired rockets into Israel to start all of this, Hamas is second only to Iran’s Ahmadinejad – and maybe the odd Al Qaeda member – as the heavyweight trash-talking champion of the world. You’d think that Hamas would have learned a lesson during last year’s Olympics from French swimmer/trash-talker Alain Bernard, right before he was blown out of the water in the 4x100 freestyle relay by Michael Phelps and gang. The only one who ever got away with incessant trash-talk was Muhammad Ali – and that’s because his mouth was writing checks that he was actually capable of cashing. Hamas’ spokesman recently said: “Your incursion to Gaza will not be a picnic, and Gaza will be your cemetery, God willing. You have no choice but to end this aggression and end the siege without any condition. You will not live in peace until our Palestinian people live in peace.” Whatever. I’m sure if Israel was capable of firing a strategic missile right into this guy’s gaping pie hole, the entire world would cheer. Until technology improves, we’ll have to settle for something a bit messier.
3) Iran has nothing to do with this.
While on vacation in Vancouver, BC, I actually heard a local talk-radio host say, “The next thing you know, the USA will link Hamas with Iran!” Actually, Hamas has saved these Leftists the trouble of blowing out a few more brain cells coming up with conspiracy theories, and has already publicly linked itself with Iran. A Sunday Times of London article from last March quotes a senior Hamas commander: ““Iran is our mother. She gives us information, military supplies and financial support.”
4) George Bush just wants war with Iran.
The same radio talk-show host above suggested that Israel’s military incursion into Iran is part of a larger conspiracy by President Bush to attack Iran and steal more oil. Because yeah, it makes total sense that Bush, on his way out of office, would conspire with his close pal Barack Obama to make the government of Israel attack Hamas so Bush can get his hands on more oil in the Middle East. Naturally, the much more simple argument that Hamas visibly fired rockets into Israel and the Israelis got fed up doesn’t make enough sense.
5) Obama is waiting in the wings, and will save the world shortly.
About the only thing on which Al-Qaeda and the GOP have ever agreed is how useless Obama is, and how pathetically he has been propped up by the American media. Ayman al-Zawahiri said in a recent audio message: “This is Obama whom the American machine of lies tried to portray as the rescuer who will change the policy of America. He kills your brothers and sisters in Gaza mercilessly and without affection.” Not only has Obama failed miserably in appealing to psychotic terrorists’ gentler and more reasonable instincts, but he’s also apparently “killing” people before even having taken the oath of office.
6) George Bush has “studiously ignored the whole problem” of Israel vs. Palestine.
Or so says new agey expert turned political analyst, Deepak Chopra, in this week’s San Francisco Chronicle. No mention of the Annapolis Conference that Bush held in November 2007 with representatives of 49 countries to develop a new Israeli-Palestinian peace plan. No mention of Condoleezza Rice’s eight trips to the area that year. But none of this matters, because Chopra – a recognized expert in such things as “self-awareness” - concluded by humbly declaring his own analysis “irrefutable”.
7) America doesn’t give the Palestinians any money.
No country has been as generous with aid to the Palestinians as America. And Bush just gave Palestinian refugees another $85 million through the United Nations. What, you’re whining that America isn’t specifically giving money to the terrorist government Hamas so it can buy better rockets? How about getting that sentiment out of your system by going out and buying your teenager a new Lamborghini so he can promptly tear out of your driveway and wrap it around a pole?
anon@10.56pm, your post looks like a copy and paste job from a US most of the substantive criticisms of the Israel government that are presented in this thread. Must be part of the Israeli PR blog-blitz.
ReplyDeleteSorry. Something got deleted. I meant to say,
ReplyDeleteyour post looks like a copy and paste job from a US discussion and doesn't address most of the substantive criticisms of the Israel government that are presented in this thread.
Carol go read some more brainwashing bullshit on electronicinfitada, decomcracynow.com etc with Brewer while he gently jacks off to Bomber's photo with an old shoe in his other hand.
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