Gaza civilian death toll rises
Israeli soldiers and Palestinian militants battled on Gaza City's outskirts after Israeli troops and tanks invaded the coastal enclave in the worst fighting in the conflict in decades.
Many Palestinian civilians as well as Hamas fighters were killed or wounded as Israeli shells slammed into houses and Gaza's main shopping district, witnesses and Palestinian medical sources said.
Ambulances struggled to reach the victims as fighting intensified in the territory crammed with 1.5 million people. The long-predicted invasion of Hamas-ruled Gaza followed a week of Israeli bombardments from land, sea and air which failed to halt militant Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel, the stated provocation for the assault.
Where are we, what’s the figures, 460 murdered Palestinians and 2750 maimed Palestinians up against 4 dead Israeli’s – well that sounds like a proportional response doesn’t it? Remember the last proportional response by Israel when they invaded Lebanon because two soldiers had been kidnapped, but then it turned out that Israel had lied and had set up the invasion months earlier and simply needed an excuse to invade and used the kidnapping of the soldiers? Well we are seeing the exact same bullshit with this new invasion, Israel want to force the hand of the new American Administration to support them as they try and change the equation on the ground, look tough for their domestic audience and try and repair the immense damage to the pride of the IDF after they got their arse kicked by Hizbollah. There is no military solution to this problem, Israel stole Palestinian land and have occupied them brutally for over 4 decades, that is the cause of Palestinian righteous grievance and until Israel deal fairly with that righteous grievance there can be no peace and the Israeli’s will continue to morph into the very nightmare of occupier that so haunts them.
Incredibly nothing from our Government decrying Israel’s outrageous behaviour, why are National so silent?
Reasoning behind the silence is simple - Key and National don't want to rock the boat with their superiors - the US, Britain and Israel. Simple!
ReplyDeleteI would encourage all of you to Boycott ALL US, British, and Israeli products, and completely stop trading with any of them. One way to accomplish this is to use Bar Code's as Identifier's when you purchase anything - So far I have been able to establish that Israel's Bar Code for produced products begin with the numbers "729", I am trying to detrmine the list of other relative bar codes for the U.S. and Britain, so if anyone might have some information to share here that would allow a total Boycott of these despicable bastards please share it as Tumeke covers this tragedy of Humanity that's taking place.
Please pass this plea on to everyone of your contacts, and please put as much pressure National as humanly possible to cut the ties with these war mongers, and greed merchants attempting to sabotage Humanity.
I sincerely hope by now that you Conservative's who voted for Key and National are starting to see how seriously you fucked up - If not, open your eyes to the reality of what you've accomplished for New Zealand with your "Change".
"If voting could change anything, it would be Illegal" - Russell Means - Lakota Sioux Nation.
Think about it!
What exactly does 'proportional response' mean bomber?
ReplyDeleteWould it be acceptable if the Israelis dispatched suicide bombers into the crowded marketplaces or school buses? Maybe if IDF launched thousands of badly constructed unguided missiles into densely refugee camps instead of precision guided munitions then would this be a 'proportionate response' that would satisfy you?
Your post is yet again another parroting of what others write without actually thinking what it means.
Sloppy thinking.
It's always the anonymous posters isn't it?
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does 'proportional response' mean bomber?
In brutal terms how about killing 4 Hamas activists for the four Israeli's killed, how is that such a difficult concept to understand?
Would it be acceptable if the Israelis dispatched suicide bombers into the crowded marketplaces or school buses?
Or how about only killing 4 Hamas activists for the four Israeli's killed, how is that such a difficult concept to understand?
Maybe if IDF launched thousands of badly constructed unguided missiles into densely refugee camps instead of precision guided munitions then would this be a 'proportionate response' that would satisfy you?
Or how about only killing 4 Hamas activists for the four Israeli's killed, how is that such a difficult concept to understand?
Your post is yet again another parroting of what others write without actually thinking what it means.
Yawn move on anonymous poster.
Sloppy thinking.
You suggest suicide bombings and the mass firing of unguided missiles as examples of 'appropriate' responses and accuse me of sloppy thinking, move on troll, I don't have time to waste.
It is interesting to note that the number of Israelis killed by rockets since 2000 is exactly half the number of suicides recorded in the Israeli Military for the same period.
ReplyDelete15.
It is interesting to note that the number of Israelis killed by rockets since 2000 is exactly half the number of suicides recorded in the Israeli Military for the same period.
ReplyDelete15.
"In brutal terms how about killing 4 Hamas activists for the four Israeli's killed, how is that such a difficult concept to understand?"
ReplyDeleteSigh. I posted earlier on the theory of Overwhelming force. Suffice it to say, war isnt fair. The objective is to win. The Israeli objective is to inflict sufficient damage onto Hamas so as to stop the rocket attacks. Its not a '1 for 1' deal.
Do the Jews get to go and Kill six million Germans? Is that what you are saying?
Sigh. I posted earlier on the theory of Overwhelming force. Suffice it to say, war isnt fair. The objective is to win. The Israeli objective is to inflict sufficient damage onto Hamas so as to stop the rocket attacks. Its not a '1 for 1' deal.
ReplyDeleteSo you a nuclear strike would be acceptale because war isn't fair scott? And I do recall you going very quiet when it emerged that Lebanon was pre-planned, would you go quiet again if it's shown that Israel are playing the same trick here scott?
Nice little football getting kicked around here. Let's not make this about National Labour have been in there and when was the last time they ever jumped up and down over this sort of carry on?
ReplyDeleteRather selective IMHO
Let's not make this about National Labour have been in there and when was the last time they ever jumped up and down over this sort of carry on?
ReplyDeleteRather selective IMHO
Why not - when Labour were in power they stood up to Israeli aggression constantly, why not now that National are in? We suddenly have no voice on these issues?
A nuclear strike would not be acceptable. But thats not wat we are talking about.
ReplyDeleteDid you take the time to read my post? In the Maxpower thread
"Why not - when Labour were in power they stood up to Israeli aggression constantly"
ReplyDeleteJust like you do bomber parroting away on the internet on the other side of the planet trying to make out you some hero because you post stuff on the internet.
If the Israelis threatened to assinate Clark for her utterences would she had made them? No, because there would be a price to pay and she like you is a coward more intent on creating an image than doing anything real.
Advocatus Diaboli: And therein lies the liberal hypocrisy.....
ReplyDeleteA nuclear strike would not be acceptable.
ReplyDeleteOh so that would be disproportionate would it Scott but 500 dead to 4 dead isn't a problem?
But thats not wat we are talking about.
Did you take the time to read my post? In the Maxpower thread
I've read your apologist rubbish and am a little disgusted by it to be frank. How you can have these beliefs in the face of such a disproportionate strike only lowers you further in my opinion.
Scott you're siding with advocatus? Now I've seen everything - why did you go so quiet after it was revealled that Israel had lied about the reasons they went to war wityh Lebanon Scott?
ReplyDelete"I've read your apologist rubbish and am a little disgusted by it to be frank"
ReplyDeleteWe've all read you apologist shite for suicide bombinga and Islamic fundamentalism and feel the same about you.
"Oh so that would be disproportionate would it Scott but 500 dead to 4 dead isn't a problem?"
ReplyDeleteI don't do morality - what I try and do is explain the motivations of the actors involved. I explained why Israel acts disproportionally.
Lebanon: I've blogged extensively on the failures of Israel in Lebanon.
And my point to advocatus is that the liberals seem to demand less vis a vis human rights when it comes to non-westerners.
Scott.
ReplyDeleteHave you found out how many Israelis were killed by rockets in 2008 yet?
I haven't been able to find out but I found that deaths on the roads in Israel average about 400 p.a.
That makes over 3,000 since 2000. We do know that 15 Israelis died from rockets in the same period.
Brewer - ive read numbers of between 4 and 10....
ReplyDeleteI admire Bomber's ability to respond to the repulsive war mongers who post on this site.
ReplyDeleteHow about we all take a moment to look at the death toll for the week to date: 500 dead in Gaza (with some sources estimating 30% are children under 15) and 7 dead Israelis.
A question to Pro-Israeli war mongers: Is it lonely over there on your side with only George W Bush to look up to?
I wonder because the whole world is waking up to this disproportionate aggresion from Israel, and its not going to be so easy to get away with for much longer.
Let's all hope to God that Obama has the CHUTZPA to put Israel back in its place by the end of the month.
The justification for Israels mass murder of Palestinians is amazing.....
ReplyDeleteIsrael wants peace but is refusing to work in partnership with Palestinians whos land they are on!
Israel has proven time and time again to be the agressors in this area....they have no rights while they tramp over others rights to live.
This will never be over while israel acts the way they do.
I would have thought that the jews would be better then this consideing their history....obviously they have learned alot about exterminating innocent people!
Israel = child murderers!
Hey LisD. Sounds to me Obama is going to deeply dissapoint you.
ReplyDelete"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," Obama said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."
As for talking with Hamas, the Islamist movement in control of Gaza, Obama said in the interview that it was "very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries."
sdm: There is such a thing as fairness in war, that's why the war crimes tribunal exists.
ReplyDeleteAnd Hamas is influenced far more by the occupation than by other countries.
Bomber said:
ReplyDeleteAnd I do recall you going very quiet when it emerged that Lebanon was pre-planned, would you go quiet again if it's shown that Israel are playing the same trick here scott?
Well Chris McGreal thinks he has evidence that Israel has been preparing for its latest attacks on Gaza for several months:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda
Months ago, as Israel prepared to unleash its latest wave of desolation against Gaza, it recognised that blasting Hamas and "the infrastructure of terror", which includes police stations, homes and mosques, was a straightforward task.
Israel also understood that a parallel operation would be required to persuade the rest of the world of the justice of its cause, even as the bodies of Palestinian women and children filled the mortuaries, and to ensure that its war was seen not in terms of occupation but of the west's struggle against terror and confrontation with Iran.
After the debacle of its 2006 invasion of Lebanon - not only a military disaster for Israel, but also a political and diplomatic one - the government in Tel Aviv spent months laying the groundwork at home and abroad for the assault on Gaza with quiet but energetic lobbying of foreign administrations and diplomats, particularly in Europe and parts of the Arab world.
A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week, at least a third of them civilians or policemen.
McGreal provides some evidence for this including:
Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.
"This was something that was planned long ahead," he said. "I was recruited by the foreign minister to coordinate Israel's efforts and I have never seen all parts of a very complex machinery - whether it is the Foreign Ministry, the Defence Ministry, the prime minister's office, the police or the army - work in such co-ordination, being effective in sending out the message."
In briefings in Jerusalem and London, Brussels and New York, the same core messages were repeated: that Israel had no choice but to attack in response to the barrage of Hamas rockets; that the coming attack would be on "the infrastructure of terror" in Gaza and the targets principally Hamas fighters; that civilians would die, but it was because Hamas hides its fighters and weapons factories among ordinary people.
Hand in hand went a strategy to remove the issue of occupation from discussion. Gaza was freed in 2005 when the Jewish settlers and army were pulled out, the Israelis said. It could have flourished as the basis of a Palestinian state, but its inhabitants chose conflict.
The Israeli progaganda is explained more fully at the above URL.
Hey LisD. Sounds to me Obama is going to deeply dissapoint you.
ReplyDelete"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," Obama said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."
Oh look at scott having a go at Lisa, what Scotty doesn't tell you regarding that quote of course Lisa is that Obama made it in the heat of a domestic campaign where he was being attacked as weak on his support of Israel. Scots mates like to scream that someone is an Anti-Semite for not allowing Israel to do what it likes and his above quote should be seen in that light, interestingly Scot didn't explain the context of the quote isn't it? If scots arguement is so strong why hide the context?
As for talking with Hamas, the Islamist movement in control of Gaza, Obama said in the interview that it was "very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries.
Exact same situation as above. Again Scott you try to sidestep the issue which is Israel's brutal 4 decade long occupation and it's recent massacre (which follows it's Lebanese adventure which of course you went very quiet over once it was revealled that Israel had lied about the soldiers being kidnapped as their reson to invade) by using two quotes from a domestic campaign debate that are being taken out of context. I'd prefer to judge Obama once he's in power.
Do you really think Obama will bring 'change' to US policy on Israel. What you are suggesting is that Obama said it, but didnt mean it. You are accusing him of either being hollow or a liar.
ReplyDeleteDoes Israel have the right to self defense?
Why didn't you put the context of those quotes to Lisa Scott?
"Does Israel have the right to self defence"
ReplyDeleteIt's the proportion of the defence that is the problem. If you can't understand that you must be a handicap.
"It's the proportion of the defence that is the problem. If you can't understand that you must be a handicap."
ReplyDeleteAnd I have outlined the motivation for a disproportional response. Do keep up....
It's all very extremely simple. Hamas STOP launching rockets into Israel. THEN, Israel will stop killing Hamas. That's it, end of story. All the rest of this is a mute point. Again, one more time: Hamas - Do NOT send rockets into Israel, and then Israel will stop killing you. The reasons Hamas does not stop launching rockets is that either Hamas is stupid or Hamas wants public sympathy for Israel killing their people and they really don't give a rats ass about their own people. Clearly, if they did - they would stop the rocket attacks!
ReplyDeleteThe rocket attacks which, until this latest atrocity, had killed 15 persons in the past 8 years, less than 1% of Israel's road deaths, were concentrated on Sderot.
ReplyDeleteI think this piece gives a clue as to why.
"Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains, it along with the settlement of Or ha-Ner, founded in 1957, were established on the village lands of Najd, which means “elevated plain” in Arabic.
Najd’s Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine. According to UN Resolution 194 and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2, the villagers of Najd have a right to return home to their personal property and to their native village.
Today, according to Khalidi, “some old trees grow” on the site of the village. It is “overgrown with cactus and Christ’s thorn and sycamore trees and contains the crumbled walls of unidentified buildings….”
There were 82 houses in Najd. Children went to school in Simsim, two kilometers away. According to Palestine Remembered the village has been completely “defaced.”
In 1596 Najd’s population was 215.
In 1838, Edward Robinson, an American biblical scholar “observed the villagers winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks” [Robinson (1841) III: 260 as quoted in Khalidi 128].
Najd’s villagers were mainly farmers and engaged in animal husbandry. “Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides.”
Najd is fourteen kilometers from Gaza. Palestinian Arabs own 12,669 dunums in Najd although Israel refuses to honor their rights to their personal property, and refuses them their inalienable right to return home. In 1945 Jews owned 495 dunums of land in Najd and public lands consisted of 412 dunums.
Najd is one of 418 ethnically cleansed villages that Dr. Khalidi includes in his seminal work. Khalidi dedicates his book:
To all those for whom these villages were home and to their descendants."
Khalidi, Walid, ed. All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated By Israel in 1948. Institute for Palestine Studies: Washington, D.C., 1992.
"Oh isn't that interesting after much prodding Scott admits Obama was actually in Israel when he said it and wants to hold those two quotes up while side stepping the FACT that over 500 Palestinians are dead when only 4 Israeli's have been killed and tries to justify that as 'proportionality doesn't matter in war'."
ReplyDeleteAre you saying Obama was lying?
"Scot you don't really have the wit to be patronizing, all you've done is what Israel has done, try and redefine the word 'proportional'. Just because you believe you've identified the motive of disproportional response and have tried to redefine the term to mean it's okay for Israel to kill 500 to their 4 dead is the same bullshit you tried when defedning Israel's response to Lebanon because two of their soldiers had been kidnapped. Of course you went very quiet once it was revealled that Israel used those kidnappings as an excuse, just as they are doing now by using these glorified home made skyrockets as justifictaion for murdering 500 people now."
God you are naive. Do you think Hamas didnt expect/want this. What about the fact that Palestinian elections are just around the corner, and Hamas have shown themselves to be somewhat ineffective at governing - nothing like a conflict with Israel to stir up passions. No, in your biased anti-semetic worldview you just run the 'blame Israel' line, ignoring geopolitical nuances.
Bomber - please tell me, what borders do you favour? 1948, 1967, 1973 and why?
And I never went quiet over Lebanon. Nice try though......
Anon 7.33pm: just fuck off.
Are you saying Obama was lying?
ReplyDeleteNo I'm saying that while in Israel at a time his tuff guy image was needed some pumping up he made some broad statements, that hardly lives up to the level of proof that made you make your original statement.
Interesting to note you had nothing to say about Brewers well thought out post, let me re-post it for you as I think we'd all hate for you to get off the hook with all this Obama side salad you seem desperate to hold onto...
The rocket attacks which, until this latest atrocity, had killed 15 persons in the past 8 years, less than 1% of Israel's road deaths, were concentrated on Sderot.
I think this piece gives a clue as to why.
"Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains, it along with the settlement of Or ha-Ner, founded in 1957, were established on the village lands of Najd, which means “elevated plain” in Arabic.
Najd’s Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine. According to UN Resolution 194 and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2, the villagers of Najd have a right to return home to their personal property and to their native village.
Today, according to Khalidi, “some old trees grow” on the site of the village. It is “overgrown with cactus and Christ’s thorn and sycamore trees and contains the crumbled walls of unidentified buildings….”
There were 82 houses in Najd. Children went to school in Simsim, two kilometers away. According to Palestine Remembered the village has been completely “defaced.”
In 1596 Najd’s population was 215.
In 1838, Edward Robinson, an American biblical scholar “observed the villagers winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks” [Robinson (1841) III: 260 as quoted in Khalidi 128].
Najd’s villagers were mainly farmers and engaged in animal husbandry. “Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides.”
Najd is fourteen kilometers from Gaza. Palestinian Arabs own 12,669 dunums in Najd although Israel refuses to honor their rights to their personal property, and refuses them their inalienable right to return home. In 1945 Jews owned 495 dunums of land in Najd and public lands consisted of 412 dunums.
Najd is one of 418 ethnically cleansed villages that Dr. Khalidi includes in his seminal work. Khalidi dedicates his book:
To all those for whom these villages were home and to their descendants."
Khalidi, Walid, ed. All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated By Israel in 1948. Institute for Palestine Studies: Washington, D.C., 1992.
God you are naive. Do you think Hamas didnt expect/want this. What about the fact that Palestinian elections are just around the corner, and Hamas have shown themselves to be somewhat ineffective at governing - nothing like a conflict with Israel to stir up passions. No, in your biased anti-semetic worldview you just run the 'blame Israel' line, ignoring geopolitical nuances.
Oh my god, the exact same bloody thing can be said about domestic pressure on Israel, and with the immediate evidence from the Lebanon war showing Israel to have planned that event you decide to heap all the blame on Israel and you still refuse to see 5 Israeli deaths to over 500 Palestinian deaths is grossly disproportional and in fact techinically is a war crime.
And I never went quiet over Lebanon. Nice try though......
Yes you did Scott once it was revealed that Israel had planned the war in Lebanon and that it wasn't ever about those two kidnapped soldiers you went incredibly quiet from your initial defense of them.
Anon 7.33pm: just fuck off.
Anon I don't like Scott much either, but blows above the belt huh, we don't need to get abusive to win this arguement, Scott, the National Party, Kiwiblogh and the rest of the right wing have not got a fucking leg to stand on with their apologist agenda by supporting this despicable massacre.
Scott 5 Israeli's have died compared to over 500 Palestinians, no amount of bullshit reasoning cleans that blood up Scott, and your blind defence of Israe has become pretty embarrassing.
"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," Obama said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."
ReplyDeleteAnd do you think for one moment Obama was considering killing 500, mostly innocent people and wounding 2500. I don't think so.
"The Israeli objective is to inflict sufficient damage onto Hamas so as to stop the rocket attacks."
ReplyDeleteWhat are their chances of success in this endeavour Scott?
You seem to be deluded enough to think that this:
"After decades of periodic conflict with Lebanon that cost thousands of lives, Israel successfully eradicated all traces of anti-Semitism from its northern neighbor with a series of heavy bombing attacks in July.
"Israel really turned us around on the whole Jew-hating thing," said Hezbollah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, shortly after a U.N.–brokered ceasefire was declared on Aug. 14. "After destroying much of our infrastructure and displacing nearly 1 million civilians, we've come to respect Israel as a legitimate power and a beacon of democracy, and not a pack of lying, usurping, hook-nosed dogs."
"I was upset at first when a bomb destroyed my school and killed many of my schoolmates and left me without legs," said Tyre bombing victim Sherifa Ayoub, 14, as she wheeled down her rubble-strewn street. "But as the days went on, and the bombs continued to fall, I began to realize that I had spent my whole young life arbitrarily lashing out at a people I thought I hated, when, all along, what I really hated was myself."
Israel's crushing victory has led Talbott and other Mideast experts to speculate that the nation may go on to bomb the anti-Semitism out of such hostile neighbors as Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen."
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/56637?utm_source=Distributed&utm_medium=Embedded%2BHTML&utm_campaign=Widgets
...is a real news report.
"Sigh. I posted earlier on the theory of Overwhelming force. Suffice it to say, war isnt fair. The objective is to win."
ReplyDeleteObviously Scott hasn't been following the news. Israel won some time ago, 1948 I think it was.
This outrage is precisely analogous to, say, Germany killing 500 French villagers because a Resistance cadre was domiciled in their town.
Well not quite as the Germans at least had an Armistice document signed by the French Government entitling them to occupy.
Looks like peace is finally in sight for the Palestinians and Jews with the near eradication of the terrorist group Hamas (baby killers). Praise Allah.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the posts by Bomber and Selwyn on this site, I realise it is worthless to try and even get a hint of context, or recognition of the at least as significant role that the various Palestinian factions have had over time in creating the situation that now exists in Israel and Palestine.
This is typical of much of the anti-Israel crowd. You claim to sympathise with the Palestinians, but never offer anything constructive to try an improve their lot. An acceptance of reality would be a start.
But actually, I have a deeper concern. Just who, within the NZ population, do these guys represent? I mean, I have Jewish friends, and some of the stuff written here left me feeling, to be honest, quite quesy.
Your concern for injustice in Palestine is balatently hollow. True, many actions of Israel are indeed to be criticised. However, you bang on and on about disproportionate response, seemingly oblivious to your own disproportioante pseudo-analysis of the situation. Extreme criticism of everything that Israel does, completely ignoring the role and actions of all the other parties involved.
I am sorry, but it only comes across to support what I have incresingly come to ralise: Jews will never be treated as equals by those with inherent bigotry. They are too easy a target, the centuries of anti-jewish propoganda is ingrained in the psyche of large populations of the earth, making it all to easy to surface again. The actions of Israel just provide you an oppurtunity to unleash your poison, behind the comfortable cover of 'criticism' of the state, not the people. But I dont buy this argument anymore, the complete lack of context and balance has rendered it invalid. I doubt your concern is for injustice per se, it is for injustice against someone at the hands of Jews. At the start of the latest conflict, there was a massacre of 100 something people in Uganda. Did you get upset about this? Or does blacks killing blacks not worry you? Yours is the kind of activism that is so much more about the self and ego than it is about true concern for the issues. Especially in comfortable places like NZ, where the concept of suffering is completely foreign and where so much can be easily said from the armchair to boost your feelings of self importance. But what do you actually achieve?
Do you not understand that the reason Israel actually exists is becausse of the centuries of attitudes of people that cannot accept a Jewish prosperity, moral equality or even presence. At least now they have a place they are relatively 'safe'. Ask yourself how much you are contributing to perpetuating these attitudes.
Ask yourself, is hate an effective tool for countering the widespread injustices in our global community?
Wow.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the posts by Bomber and Selwyn on this site, I realise it is worthless to try and even get a hint of context, or recognition of the at least as significant role that the various Palestinian factions have had over time in creating the situation that now exists in Israel and Palestine.
Well I'm glad you weren't reading during the Lebanon War 2 years ago then Frank because your sensibilities would've really taken a pounding because when we all found out that Israel had lied about the reason for the invasion being the kidnapping of two of their soldiers, we had real nasty words to say.
This is typical of much of the anti-Israel crowd. You claim to sympathise with the Palestinians, but never offer anything constructive to try an improve their lot. An acceptance of reality would be a start.
Bullshit, that's you projecting Frank, many of us who have been appalled by the 42 year long brutal occupation of Palestine have always offered constructive advice like, 'GET THE FUCK OFF LAND YOU STOLE' - see how constructive that is Frank?
But actually, I have a deeper concern. Just who, within the NZ population, do these guys represent? I mean, I have Jewish friends, and some of the stuff written here left me feeling, to be honest, quite quesy.
Well it's a blog site where we put OUR opinions Frank, if you don't like our opinions there's the door and off you go, have I or Tim appeared at your home and have either one of us forced you to go to our site and read our opinions? Have we? We represent ourselves, we don't pretend to represent anyone else. So far Frank all you've done in this post is try and insinuate that me and Tim are Anti-Semitic, you haven't yet once tried so far in this post to actually debate the issue at hand which is the latest massacre of 515 Palestinians and the maiming of another 2700.
Your concern for injustice in Palestine is balatently hollow. True, many actions of Israel are indeed to be criticised. However, you bang on and on about disproportionate response, seemingly oblivious to your own disproportioante pseudo-analysis of the situation. Extreme criticism of everything that Israel does, completely ignoring the role and actions of all the other parties involved.
Agian, nothing about the actual issue at hand, just that me and Tim are extreme in our criticism, ignoring of course the fact that extreme criticism is absolutely justified by Israel's extreme actions. The reason Frank doesn't like what we have to say is because it cuts to the bone, of course IDF hellfire missiles cut to the bone, and the face, and the Torso, and the lower body - but note not a word from Frank over actual cut to the bone wounds, just the words me and Tim use to attack Israel.
I am sorry, but it only comes across to support what I have incresingly come to ralise: Jews will never be treated as equals by those with inherent bigotry. They are too easy a target, the centuries of anti-jewish propoganda is ingrained in the psyche of large populations of the earth, making it all to easy to surface again. The actions of Israel just provide you an oppurtunity to unleash your poison, behind the comfortable cover of 'criticism' of the state, not the people. But I dont buy this argument anymore, the complete lack of context and balance has rendered it invalid. I doubt your concern is for injustice per se, it is for injustice against someone at the hands of Jews. At the start of the latest conflict, there was a massacre of 100 something people in Uganda. Did you get upset about this? Or does blacks killing blacks not worry you? Yours is the kind of activism that is so much more about the self and ego than it is about true concern for the issues. Especially in comfortable places like NZ, where the concept of suffering is completely foreign and where so much can be easily said from the armchair to boost your feelings of self importance. But what do you actually achieve?
Incredible - how fucking dare you come here and accuse us of the hatred, have Tim or I dropped bombs on the most densly populated region on Earth? You are just another Israeli apologist who is attempting to twist the debate and make it all about how unfair it is to criticise poor old Israel, it is tired, no one buys it any longer and you have yet to mention the actual issue at hand. Your snide comments and continued abuse aimed at me and Tim still doesn't actually debate the isue that 5 Israeli's dead to 515 Palestinians dead is a war crime of disproportionate levels.
Do you not understand that the reason Israel actually exists is becausse of the centuries of attitudes of people that cannot accept a Jewish prosperity, moral equality or even presence. At least now they have a place they are relatively 'safe'. Ask yourself how much you are contributing to perpetuating these attitudes.
YAWN - it's the 'insinuate Anti-Semitism because they dare to criticize Israeli war crimes and the brutal and crippling 4 decade long occupation of land Israel stole' game, and it's just so dreary and dull. Can I note to readers that Frank has still not addressed the actual issue at hand which is the dispicable disproportional response to glorified skyrockets to rather focus personally on me and Tim.
Ask yourself, is hate an effective tool for countering the widespread injustices in our global community?
How about you ask yourself Frank whether utter denial of the horror your mates are projecting upon a people they have brutally oppressed for 4 decades is countering the widespread injustices in our global community or are you just a mindless apologist?
Frank, criticising the Israeli government is not the same as anti-Semitism, which is attacking, disparaging and discriminating against people merely because they are Jewish.
ReplyDeleteIslamophobia and Anti-Arab prejudice (also a Semitic people) also has a long history in the West, which goes back at least to the Crusades. Try reading Edward Said's Orientalism.
How is it that criticism of Israel's government actions makes you feel queasy, but the killing and maiming of large mumbers of Palestinians, including large numbers of civilians, doesn't make you feel queasy? It certainly makes me feel that way.
And along with some (but by no means all) of the comments in the media criticising Hamas and/or Palestinians, I've seen some expressions of the old long-term Orientalist (negative) stereotypes of Arabic and/or Muslim people.
Well noting that 'war is politics by other means', some of what you say I find myself agreeing with.
ReplyDelete"Oh my god, the exact same bloody thing can be said about domestic pressure on Israel"
Absolutely. Israel got its arsed handed to it be Hezbollah, and is looking to strengthen itself. There are domestic considerations - benefitting Olmert and Ehud Barack. My point was simply that Hamas are not the innocent victims you portray them to be - they have elections coming up and haven't really delivered in power. In an ironic twist, many Arab states are wanting to see Hamas defeated, and so on the quiet are wanting Israel to deal to them.
Sderot: Bomber i am surprised you didn't jump up and say 'there is no military response to this'. However, it is true that there have been transgressions - which to a large extent I asked where you think the borders should be.
Question - do you defend the destruction of synagogues inside Gaza by Hamas?
Obama - many on the left think he is the messiah, however I dont think you are going to see as radical a change as you hope for with foreign policy. How disappointed will you be?
"Anon I don't like Scott much either,"
You're personal feeling towards me I find irrelevant.
"
What are their chances of success in this endeavour Scott?"
Time will tell.
I am so sorry my Palestinian brother's and sister's, I acknowledge your suffering, loss and heartache-I see you as apart of my great tribe-We are all manifestly human.
ReplyDelete"Obama - many on the left think he is the messiah, however I dont think you are going to see as radical a change as you hope for with foreign policy. How disappointed will you be?"
ReplyDeleteNo one looks at Obama as a black jesus. You need to appreciate that any change from Bush's blank cheque foreign policy in Israel will be a radical one.
Why don't we just wait and see what Obama does?
You never know, we could all be blessed with another period of sdm shutting his kisser for 5 minutes.
(PS: this post's word verication is 'hateco'! How appropriate for you sdm!)
"
ReplyDelete(PS: this post's word verication is 'hateco'! How appropriate for you sdm!)"
Unlike the hatred of the Jews being offered as 'analysis' by yourself and others, I dont hate anyone
Well I'm glad you weren't reading during the Lebanon War 2 years ago then Frank because your sensibilities would've really taken a pounding because when we all found out that Israel had lied about the reason for the invasion being the kidnapping of two of their soldiers, we had real nasty words to say.
ReplyDelete"Haaretz reported in March 2007 that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert testified to the Winograd Commission that several meetings regarding Hezbollah were held upon his taking office, and that in response to the likely scenario of soldiers again being abducted, he chose one of several plans of action instead of having to make a snap-judgement if and when such a scenario occurred."
Smart thinking imo since Hizibollah has been pulling the kidnap/rocket firing shit since 5 of their men were imprisoned in Israel for the murder of Israeli civilians.
Bomber do you think Israel has a legitimate claim to any land?
ReplyDeleteI need to clarify my wording on my previous post, when I said, I see Palestinian's as 'apart' of my tribe, my intention was to write, I see Palestinians as 'a part' of my tribe-words and meaning can be very delicate and precise-so this is what i intended to say.
ReplyDeleteAnon: Military should be doing planning against potential threats. What would be more of a story would be if Israel had NO plans for Hezbollah.....
ReplyDeleteSteve: Bomber has written that the Occupation has lasted 42 years. Therefore by his own words, he favours something around the 1967 arrangement...
Unlike the hatred of the Jews being offered as 'analysis' by yourself and others, I dont hate anyone
ReplyDeleteSDM - please show where LisD showed hatred towards Jews in any of LisD's post. I thought you were a bit above the Anti-Semetic name calling but when your position becomes untenable you lash out like the usual apologists huh SDM? Disappointing.
Let's just remind everyone of what Lis D posted...
First Post
How about we all take a moment to look at the death toll for the week to date: 500 dead in Gaza (with some sources estimating 30% are children under 15) and 7 dead Israelis.
A question to Pro-Israeli war mongers: Is it lonely over there on your side with only George W Bush to look up to?
I wonder because the whole world is waking up to this disproportionate aggresion from Israel, and its not going to be so easy to get away with for much longer.
Let's all hope to God that Obama has the CHUTZPA to put Israel back in its place by the end of the month.
Second Post
No one looks at Obama as a black jesus. You need to appreciate that any change from Bush's blank cheque foreign policy in Israel will be a radical one.
Why don't we just wait and see what Obama does?
You never know, we could all be blessed with another period of sdm shutting his kisser for 5 minutes.
(PS: this post's word verication is 'hateco'! How appropriate for you sdm!)
SDM - please show us exactly where in both these posts by LisD where LisD exhibits the hatred of the Jews being offered as 'analysis' by yourself .
Now hangon a second here Bomber.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't specifically referring to LisD, my point was that the analysis of many posters seems to be anti-semetic. This troubles me deeply.
Lets take a look at some of the comments
"Anonymous said...
Sdm should be put in the furnace with the Jews for his crimes against humanity. You are a Nazi for calling Palestinians anti-semites."
That was never censored. Its anti-semetic - it calls for my death, and Brewer thinks it was humor.
LisD made the comment that "Hateco" was appropriate for me. And I dont get that. What I have consistently tried to do is offer an objective anaylsis of the motivations for the actors involved. I havent defended Israel, but rather tried to explain why they may be, for instance, motivated by disproportionate action.
I just cant shake the feeling that there is Jewish hatred here, maybe not from LisD, but its here and I find it disturbing.
Hello...Censor?
ReplyDeleteSo when you posted...
ReplyDelete(PS: this post's word verication is 'hateco'! How appropriate for you sdm!)"
Unlike the hatred of the Jews being offered as 'analysis' by yourself and others, I dont hate anyone
...in direct response to LisD's post you weren't referring directly to LisD?
If you have any issue with any post and think someone has gone too far, and I agree the comment you sight was offensive, please feel free to inform Tim and I will have the comment removed, you will note I removed the one you refered to on this thread regarding your business. I utterly find your views on environmentalists you aired during the election to be repugnant but you should air you opinon on the issues - NOT PERSONAL COMMENTS - but on the issues and feel free of hatred.
A 'Stateless' (Palestinian) constituency cannot be authentically or legitimately represented in an international system of 'State's'
ReplyDelete-This seems to my mind to be a profoundly central issue here.
Also the notion of establishing a 'single sovereign State' composed of 'two separate and non-conjoining territories' is frankly untenable, unreasonable and illogical for both neighboring parties involved. I suggest we all focus on issue's, we are all part of 'groups', however we are 'individual's' with constructive capabilities as well.
Well noting that I consider myself to be an environmentalist, was on a nature reserve on New Years Day, have spent many hours in the bush, tramping, camping, enjoying and so I want to see that protected for my childrens children, I have nothing against environmentalists....
ReplyDeleteSDM you may have forgotten what you said in the heat of the election debate regarding the Greens and Green supporters – I won’t.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you equate green supporters with environmentalists? Are you saying you have to vote Green to be an environmentalist?
ReplyDeleteAnd I hardly posted during the election campaign as I was in Europe for most of it.....so I sincerely don't know what it is that I said......
I am off topic here, but I support the Green Party, though I think social-equity is as important as our collective eco-system; it need not be only one or the other- as for all of our great-nation's political parties.
ReplyDelete"That was never censored. Its anti-semetic - it calls for my death, and Brewer thinks it was humor. "
ReplyDeleteScott. I've had enough of your smears. Your posting since this outrage began has shown you to be a pathetic, bigoted sucker. You started in to the defence of a war crime without even knowing what the victims had done to warrant the collective punishment meted out to them. Now you are deliberately lying in an attempt to smear me.
I called it a sick attempt at humour.
Bomber, Tim, see if you can identify the computer responsible for the anonymous infantile nazi references. After this latest piece of garbage from Scott, I would not be surprised if he is the perp.
No Brewer, once again you are mistaken.
ReplyDeleteYou can call me whatever names you like, no skin off my back. Suffice it to say, it is not me who posted the "anonymous infantile nazi references" - am happy for Tim/bomber to verify.
I have not defended a war crime, but rather attempted to rationalize the logic of the Israeli responce. I offer my analysis, not my morality. I am not a priest.
But I will say this - perhaps the nastiest aspect of conflict is that those who suffer are often innocent bystanders to the political dispute. And I feel for them, deeply.
Sorry sdm I got carried away in the moment. I dont even know you and I apologise if my comment was offensive.
ReplyDeleteHowever I find it equally as insulting to be accused of hating Jews! I am strictly anti-war, not anti-semetic. My 'anaylsis', like yours, is what it is. But remember 'morality' by definition is a code of conduct which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong.
There must be these fantastic PR machines working to constantly redefine words and what they mean - anti-semetic is a classic, morality too. And 'disproprotionate' seems to be the latest casualty. According to CNN 'disproportionate' now means 'all's fair'.
Go figure.
You are certainly no priest. You have demonstrated insufficient analytical capacity to fulfill the role of altar-boy. This is easy to demonstrate:
ReplyDelete"I offer my analysis, not my morality."
You have spent the last few days defending Israel's act. That involves a moral judgement.
If all you have to offer is the theory of overwhelming force, which, by the way, is inappropriate to this situation, then you've made a post that is off-topic and you might as well bugger off. All of us here are debating this question from a legal and moral standpoint. That you have nothing to contribute to this aspect of the debate is made manifest by your obvious lack of a moral compass. You have used a lie in an attempt at a cheap slur. This is the act of a soft-brained coward and I call you on it.
"You have spent the last few days defending Israel's act. That involves a moral judgement."
ReplyDeleteI was tempted to let that slide, but I am not going to.
My interest is in geopolitics, security, international relations etc etc. In doing so I try and consider why countries/actors/orgnisations act the way they do.
Consider this - do you think science is (or should be) value-free?
Do you ever think about why Palenstine might be a little pissed off with Israel then? do you even think about their geopolitics, their security and their international relations etc etc?
ReplyDeleteLisD - absolutely. Their primary weapon is using low-tech attacks against the Israelis - they fight unconventionally as they are the weaker actor.
ReplyDeleteIn some respects their strategy is to weaken Israel by forcing it to overreact, perhaps dividing Israel from the west. This brings political pressure to the Israeli's to do a deal.
Boycott Link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.big.org.nz
I feel there is an anomaly present here- and that is that the policies of the State of Israel toward the (occupied) Territories of Palestine are not strictly-speaking 'foreign policy' because the 'Territories of Palestine' are not technically or 'officially' a 'State'-To my mind this tragically undermines the legitimacy of both (the actual State of) Israel and (the potential State of)'Palestine'. This is very deep stuff in a bi-lateral and international diplomatic context.
ReplyDeleteSdm, i've been reading your posts this whole time, without really commenting. I now conclude, you really don't have a clue at all on what is going on in the conflict, nor have you read about it aside from media coverage which lacks depth and analysis. I think Brewer, Karlos, Bomber, Tim and the rest are insulting their intelligence to be responding to your laughable defence of Israel.
ReplyDeleteWhen you stop regurgitating Israeli propaganda and support yourself with historical facts and not distortions or vague references, then you might perhaps be taken more seriously.
You ought to be ASHAMED of yourself for defending Israel and LEGITIMISING its war crime. I'm absolutely disgusted with your defence. Shame on you and anyone else who thinks that massacring innocent people is a solution to any conflict.
And you know what, call me an anti-semite, go on. 'cause that's all your feeble-minded self can come up with when everything else fails you.
-Anti-Flag.
Hey Scott,
ReplyDeleteStill waiting for your response to replies at
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12465152&postID=3977847722275622966&isPopup=true
I think Brewer, Karlos, Bomber, Tim and the rest are insulting their intelligence to be responding to your laughable defence of Israel. Just trying to win one over Anti.
I know Bomber, I know. But not sure if this one is worth it.
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
I mean Karlos*
ReplyDeleteKarlos, is there a way for me to contact you? Let me know. Want you involved in some fundraising and other events we're planning soon.
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
Anti-Flag. Speaking as someone who remembers your previous remarks on a number of issues, particularly your defamation of Dr Buchanan, you condemning anyone as disgusting is rather hypocritical.
ReplyDeleteLet me make this really clear so that you can understand. I am not defending Israel. What I am doing is trying to provide a geopolitical explanation for Israels actions - why they act the way they do. I offer no opinion as to the rights or wrongs of their actions, merely an explanation. The fact that you can not understand the difference says more about you than it does me.
I have never said it is a solution to the conflict.
Karlos - I didnt see that. Let me take a look....
ReplyDeleteToo funny.
ReplyDeleteAll the little anti Israel cheerleaders moralising over things they appear to know nothing about (or at least nothing more than the leftist propaganda they've been fed, you have to be either young or stupid or both to take such a one eyed view of the world and the humans in it).
Bomber, of course, is leading the pack, squealing with outrage.
Sdm taking on all comers and defeating them with kindness and facts.
and Frank who sums them up so beautifully that Bomber has to do one of his patented "long" comments to try to bore everyone to death or at least make them forget the sense that Frank wrote.
I'm assuming that Tim and Bomber will soon be heading off to Palestine to offer themselves as human shields to stop those dastardly Israelis from harming any more innocent men with AK47's and masks on.
That's what someone who really believed would do...................
....wouldn't they?
Community Town-Hall, Temple, Church, Mosque, or Synagogue- We all have the 'just' right to, be 'and' feel safe and free of harassment in our own home and 'village'. New Zealand is a uniquely unique Nation we share and collectively comprise- I will always remember that justice comes at a price, however I am determined that we all keep our blood flowing on the inside and insure our expressions are civil and, diplomatic in the deepest sense of the word-NZ, Diplomatic Nation; I was born here, I feel the integrity of being a citizen, and I will 'live' for this Great-Nation. Our future is intentionally assured, and exists as an indivisible whole. We need not squabble amongst ourselves-Solidarity IS Gold!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNoted!
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
Sdm: are you kidding me? You go beyond merely explaining the rationale behnd Israel's actions. You're outright defending it and at times, sound hysterical in this defence. Let's not pretend this is a cool-headed approach you're making here. We know better.
ReplyDeletePete: I know nothing? Let's debate the issue then, and we'll see who it is that is falling for propaganda here. : )
Love how the pro-Israelis are cheering for sdm who has provided no evidence, nothing to support himself other than regurgitating Israeli propaganda that can easily be refuted. Yet they ignore that Brewer and Karlos have bombarded these debates with countless evidence to support what they're arguing. But that's right, it's all propaganda they're providing, even when it comes from humanitarian sources, Israeli sources.....all lies.
-Anti-Flag.
ReplyDelete"Yet they ignore that Brewer and Karlos have bombarded these debates with countless evidence to support what they're arguing"
ReplyDelete....Brewer and co keep posting the same whatamericaneedstoknow.com etc Palestinian propaganda sites as their sources so how is it any different than "regurgitating Israeli propaganda".
All the little anti Israel cheerleaders moralising over things they appear to know nothing about (or at least nothing more than the leftist propaganda they've been fed, you have to be either young or stupid or both to take such a one eyed view of the world and the humans in it).
ReplyDeleteAgain Pete all yoiu do is attack us and not the issue at hand, the issue at hand is the fact that 4 Israelis have been killed by glorified rockets as opposed to the what now folks, I lose count each morning because the Israeli's are just so good at murdering people - are we hitting 500 yet? All you do throughout this entire post is attack me and Tim, why can't you stick to the actual issue and explain why this murderous imbalance is so justified? Because you can't and so all you do is attack us, which are petty tactics of an apologist. Back off to kiwiblogh for you pete, they are excellent at apologising for Israel over there.