[UPDATE: Saturday 9:50PM
Guardian has a video opening with footage of the bombed Gaza parliament.
Saturday 4:50PM:
Just seen this photo from the NY Times of the new look Palestinian legislature after the Israeli peace initiatives arrived at parliament buildings, Gaza. Olmert and Livni and Barak and the Israeli Cabinet signed off on this outrage.
More on the Palestinian Legislative Council - interview with Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, an independent member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and one-time presidential candidate.
The photo below (marked "January 1" from Wikipedia) appears to be of the legislature building in the West Bank not the Gaza one.. The best picture I could find of it is sadly this:
Just enough to confirm the detail remaining on the ruins matches that of the building in the above picture.]
NY Times:
Earlier on Thursday, Israeli war planes and naval forces bombed Hamas security installations, tunnels used for weapons smuggling and militants’ houses as well as symbols of government like the Parliament building, a Gaza landmark, and the Ministry of Justice, the Israeli military said.
I guess the IDF thought because so many Hamas MP's are being held hostage in Israel anyway that they might as well demolish their parliament, especially since they were running out of things in Gaza that they can blow up. Can't find it in their war crimes evidence they are currently releasing as highlight reels either. TheIsraeli Foreign Ministry notes:
Many secondary explosions occurred following the strike, indicating weapons stores in the house.
In the most popular massacre clip I note there are no secondary explosions.
As yet I cannot find any official claim of responsibility for the parliament attack from the Israelis. They are proud of their strike on the Palestinian Prime Minister's office, but no word yet on the parliament. This would have been signed off by the Olmert Cabinet. Fancy blowing up the other side's parliament and claiming you want peace!? Imagine if Hamas did that to the Knesset what the reaction would be. I saw a report on TV just now saying the Israelis were firing on anything that moved from the Gaza frontier. If the blockaded Palestinians approach the wire of their ghetto prison they will be fired upon, that's the situation with Israel - and it seems not much better than the Egypt crossings. They sacrificed the Palestinians to guarantee their own security against Israeli attack and are acting entirely in that character. Israel does not act alone, it can only do what it is doing because international reaction is controlled via the US.
Displacing civilians and then assaulting their refugee camps and rejecting cease-fire talks - that's the same situation in Palestine as in the Eastern Congo. But Israel to the West is a nice white middle class country so their press rarely ascribes to it the labels of brutal extremism that it so readily applies to the parties in the Eastern Congo. I'm not so delicate...
The Israeli State terrorist website encourages Jewish children from overseas to participate in military camps. Promoting terrorism to children. People get all giddy about the mad mullahs in the madrasses brainwashing the muslim children, well Israel does the same thing in its own way. On the IDF site:
Prisoners of war! really? There's eleven thousand Palestianians in Israeli prisons:8,456 were from the West Bank, 762 from the Gaza Strip, 552 from Jerusalem, and 132 from within Israel itself. In October 2008, Haaretz reported that there are 600 Palestinians being held in administrative detention in Israel, including "about 15 minors.
- and on the other side... one Israeli POW.
From the ages of 18-20 Israeli youths are expected to join the state military (itself an original amalgam of Jewish terrorist organisations) and suppress Arabs - that's their induction into the Jewish State. They are pawns. Watch them as part of the political posturing on the border as the politicians use them to menace the other side. Tragic. Ridiculous. Obscene.
"...BUT SHOULD DO SO MORE PROPORTIONATELY?"
ReplyDeleteTRAITORS...OMAR BARGHOUTI.PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST...CONDI RICE SHIT BRICKS WHEN AUSA ISSUED A REWARD FOR HER ARREST AS A WAR CRIMINAL LAST YEAR.WHERE WAS HER MATE WINSTON WHO TRIED TO PROTECT HER WHEN HE COULDN'T EVEN DEFEND HIMSELF IN THE FINAL RECKONING.KNEE DEEP IN SHIT FROM OWEN GLENN, SITTING NEXT TO SIR HOWIE NOW HE'S SEEN HIM OFF.
THE BELLICOSE SECRETARY OF STATE, U.S STOOGES AND TIN POT DICTATORS...FOR ISRAEL, NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, REMAINS THE OCCUPIER AND SETTLER-COLONIAL OPPRESSOR, WHILE THE INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS REMAIN THE COLONIZER AND OPPRESSED...IF PSYCHIATRY IS THE MEDICAL TECHNIQUE THAT AIMS TO ENABLE MAN NO LONGER TO BE A STRANGER IN 'HIS'(SIC) ENVIRONMENT, I OWE IT TO MYSELF TO AFFIRM THAT THE ARAB, PERMANENTLY AN ALIEN IN HIS OWN COUNTRY, LIVES IN A STATE OF ABSOLUTE DE-PERSONALISATION...THE EVENTS (IN PALESTINE) ARE THE LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE OF AN ATTEMPT TO "DE-CEREBRALISE A PEOPLE"...TO OVERCOME A WORLD WHERE BLACK IS BAD AND WHITE IS GOOD, AN ENTIERLY NEW WORLD MUST COME INTO BEING.THIS UTOPIAN DESIRE, TO BE ABSOLUTELY FREE OF THE PAST, REQUIRES TOTAL REVOLUTION, "ABSOLUTE VIOLENCE".VIOLENCE PURIFIES, DESTROYING NOT ONLY THE CATEGORY OF WHITE, BUT THAT OF BLACK TOO.TRUE REVOLUTION CAN ONLY COME FROM THE PEASANTS OR FELLAHEEN.THIS EMPHASIS ON THE UNDERCLASS HIGHLIGHTS THE DISGUST WITH THE GREED AND POLITICKING OF THE 'COMPRADOR' (AN AGENT OF A FOREIGN POWER) BOURGEOISIE.THE BRAND OF NATIONALISM ESPOUSED BY THESE CLASSES, AND EVEN BY THE URBAN PROLETARIAT, IS INSUFFICIENT FOR TOTAL REVOLUTION BECAUSE SUCH CLASSES BENEFIT FROM THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURES OF IMPERIALISM.NON AGRARIAN REVOLUTIONS END WHEN URBAN CLASSES CONSOLIDATE THEIR OWN POWER...
One of the least understood aspects of this conflict revolves around Israel's major bone of contention - recognition as a Jewish State.
ReplyDeletePalestinians cannot accept this for three reasons. The first is because they were not the only party to reject partition:
“In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”
Secondly, Israel has never recognized Palestine:
In an interview with the the Sunday Times Golda Meir, Israel's Prime Minister between 1969-1974, stated in June 1969:
"It is not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them, they did not exist." (Iron Wall, p. 311)
If one examines the constitution of several important Israeli political parties, one finds a denial of Palestinian statehood and rights. The Likud Party for instance, opposes statehood, as does the Yisrael Beiteinu Party which openly proposes the forcible transference of Arabs. Kadima has a bob each way by insisting on Israel's historic right to all of Eretz Israel in its constitution but publicly paying lip service to a small Palestinian State.
Thirdly, a condition of recognition insisted upon by Israel is the abandonment of all claims arising out of the expulsion of the indigenous people in 1948. This, to the Palestinians, is utterly unacceptable. They would never have the right to even visit the place where their families had dwelt for centuries nor claim compensation for its loss. The "right of return" for Jews to a place where they have never lived as opposed to the prohibition of Palestinians to enter the land of their forefathers has its ironies.
For these reasons, to the Palestinians, nothing is settled. The original wound has never been treated and all bets are off.
In my view there is some merit in the argument. The U.N. partition plan was never ratified. Israel unilaterally declared statehood before it was put into effect and they did not accept it either by word or deed - Israel has never declared its borders. The Palestinians never accepted it at all. It is therefore a rather moot point as to whether partition is valid at all.
This makes all the territory disputed.
Under the Geneva convention, settling on disputed territory is forbidden and resistance to an occupier is permitted. To the Palestinian, settlers are complicit in the theft of their land and the violence that accompanies it. They are therefore, permitted targets according to the Koran which has very strict proscriptions against the harming of innocents.
To the Palestinian, settlers are complicit in the theft of their land and the violence that accompanies it. They are therefore, permitted targets according to the Koran which has very strict proscriptions against the harming of innocents.
ReplyDeleteBrewer.
So according to the Koran, 4 month old babies, who live in the settler regions, are legitimate military targets?
Say that with a straight face brewer.
Perhaps, if everybody is a legitimate target, you can understand why the Jewish peoples, after 2000+ years of persecution, are not going to be anybodies target anymore.
You empathise with Palestinians anger, and rightly so, but you can't empathise with the Jewish plight?
Can you not understand, after the Holocaust, that the Jewish peoples have basically said fuck the rest of the world, you now suffer, not us.
You have to view all this in that context brewer.
Brewer, you should stop responding to cowards who talk shit and try to be tough while under anonymous status. Hahahaha.
ReplyDeleteAF.
Statistics from the well-known anti-Semitic web site B'tselem, Israeli centre for Human Rights:
ReplyDeletePeriod 29 September 2000 - 30 November 2008
Palestinian children killed by Israel in the West Bank and Gaza: 952
Israeli children killed by Palestinians in Israel: 84
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
"Can you not understand, after the Holocaust, that the Jewish peoples have basically said fuck the rest of the world, you now suffer, not us.
ReplyDeleteYou have to view all this in that context brewer."
So your saying that after the holocaust the jews decided it was their turn to meat out some oppression? Is that seriously the argument you want to make?
If this is any indication of 'progress' we are fucked as a species.
Sixteen out of the 30 killed in Israeli airstrikes since New Year’s Eve were children; nine were from the same family and nine of the adults killed were women.
ReplyDeleteFifty-seven percent of Palestinians killed so far in 2009 have been children.
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=34488
anyone who thinks what has has happened to Palestianians is fair is a fuckwit!
ReplyDeleteAgain you have your lands stripped from you with no way of living a decent life...what would you do???
I hope that the Palestianians fight till the bitter end to get back what is theirs!
America again has shown its is nothing but a supporter of terrorist activities and they wonder why planes are diven into their buildings!
Trying to understand this conflict by examining the events surrounding the withdrawal from Gaza is like trying to work out the internal combustion engine by looking into the petrol tank. The short answer is that Israel withdrew from Gaza as a stratagem while upping the ante on the West Bank.
ReplyDeleteIf you are sincerely interested in the origins I suggest reading Scott Bidstrup's essay:
http://www.bidstrup.com/zionism.htm
....then checking out all the facts from authentic history sites.
A Real Cease-Fire Needed in Gaza
ReplyDeleteBy Charles Krauthammer
Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
-- Associated Press, Dec. 27
WASHINGTON -- Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.
This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.
For Hamas the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).
At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.
That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.
What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.
The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.
Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.
Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.
Hamas' rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire.
If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost again. It can ill afford to lose any more wars.
letters@charleskrauthammer.com
"Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life"
ReplyDeleteSixteen out of the 30 killed in Israeli airstrikes since New Year’s Eve were children; nine were from the same family and nine of the adults killed were women.
Fifty-seven percent of Palestinians killed so far in 2009 have been children.
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=34488
So, out of the 30 people killed since New Year, 25 have been women and children.
"Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal."
Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth. Where do you think the French Resistance hid their weapons?
"Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005."
Utter horsepiss. Israel withdrew from Gaza to isolate and ghetto-ize it after the acknowledged fair elections went in favour of Hamas, meanwhile stepping up wholesale clearances and settlements in the West Bank.
"the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza."
360 square kilometers out of 27,799 square kilometers from which they have been dispossessed without the remotest possibility of either return or compensation.
"Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all."
The very first target of this attack was a passing out parade of new police recruits. Pray tell, Mr Krauthammer, what use are Courts if you have no Police? Tim has already posted the destruction of the Parliament buildings.
"Hamas' rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped"
Hogwash. Israel provided the provocation:
"Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.
The writer is Uri Avnery - ex IDF and member of the Israeli Parliament
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01022009.html
Here, for the prurient, is a picture of the damage caused by a Palestinian rocket:
http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/searchpopup?picId=7701736
Scott.
This is without doubt the most disgusting post you have placed on Tumeke, sourced as it is from a partisan Israeli shill such as Krauthammer.
I challenge you.
How many Israelis have died as a result of rocket attacks?
Here is a suggestion:
ReplyDeleteDROP THE NOTION OF JEWISH SUPREMACY AND SOLE RIGHTS TO THE LAND, AND PEACE WILL ENSUE.
So as per usual whenever NZers try to debate the horror that is the genocide of the Palestinian people, some zionist spin doctor (usually foreign) tries to close down the argument with strawman arguments, non sequiturs and attacks on the character of anyone who chooses to examine the appalling crimes against the Palestinian people that have been committed regularly since or 1946 so.
ReplyDeleteOf all the weak assed pieces of bulldust the phone lie has to be the most transparently weak.
Setting aside for a moment the fact that cell phones ring in someone's pocket not in a house and are therefore useless as a way of alerting households, especially in a panicked crush of people running from one spot to another trying to avoid the missiles, bombs and incendiaries raining down on them, and considering the reality that for a citizen of Gaza keeping the cell phone charged is an unattainable feat.
Before the attacks on the power station electricity was only running for 2 hours a day max in most households. That means people don't leave their phones switched on all day but turn them on at set times to send and receive texts. This power-saving act means that most texts will be received by the people long after their houses have been reduced to rubble.
People outside Palestine have been persuaded to forget Hamas is the elected government of Palestine. That in a fit of pique because the zionist murderers in power didn't like the election result, they have fought to marginalise the standing of the government elected by a process which former prez Carter (head of the observation team) described as the most scrupulously fair election he has seen anywhere. By contrast the procession of corrupt knesset members, bribery and election fixing means that winning the vote in Israel is strictly for gangsters. So the leaders of the racist pseudo state of israel have committed all sort of dirty tricks to enable the uninterrupted slaughter of the owners of the land israel is in the process of stealing. These include allowing fatah gangsters to smuggle goods into gaza in return for kidnapping the few foreign journalists who were based in gaza. As soon as the BBC left things got really bad on the strip.
Next the spies began paying these same crooks to launch rocket attacks at the big empty spaces of land stolen but not yet occupied, thereby giving the zionist thugs an excuse to murder more Palestinians.
The numbers of israelis killed by these rockets are infinitesimal compared to the children slaughtered by the apartheid state of israel. The rocket makers have been assiduously hunted by Hamas security but mysteriously more rocket parts are allowed to slip into Gaza, but no medical supplies eh.
Nice people the zionists - they will help kill 10 of their fellow travellers if it allows them to murder 1000 indigenous Palestinians.
More hypocrisy - the israelis blame the palestinians for the fact that some Gaza residents have been bribed, blackmailed and extorted into aiding the enemy at the same time as they claim that the nazi collaborators in the warsaw ghetto or the trusties at auschwitz were victims of circumstance.
Torture, kidnapping, theft and destruction of the family home, even the rape of children are but a few of the techniques israeli agents have used to create collaborators.
The torturers have gone on to teach amerikan torturers in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram, and Diego Garcia.
62 years seems a long time. It is longer than many other infidel occupations of Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley, but by no means the longest invasion and occupation. One of the reasons the zionists have become so locked into this frenzy of mass murder is that they know their history and can do the math. Other occupations have lasted more than a century, but always, in the end, the indigenous people of the Jordan Valley win out. The israel experiment (which should have been conducted in a chunk of austria and germany after ww2) will end in worse bloodshed than Irgun and the rest of the gangs and gangsters had used to start it.
The other reason for this round of bombing is even worse. There is to be an election soon and the israeli ruling elite want a 'victory' to cleanse the memory of the racist pseudo state's defeat at the hands of hezbollah.
There will be no substantial land invasions into Gaza, the Israelis know they would get their asses kicked just like Lebanon, so they will flatten the last of Gaza's infrastructure a pointless act which will only strengthen the resolve of the inmates.
The Gazains won't be tricked into providing a provocation so the sheeple in amerika or england, australia or nz, france or germany can lap up more lies written in israel, printed and videoed through the mass media. They will hang tough and prepare for their time.
It won't be long now. The amerikan empire is on the bones, any day now a scandal will erupt over the way that both military and political decisions made in DC put the needs and the wishes of israelis ahead of amerikans.
A spy will be caught trading amerikan lives for israeli advantage, or amerikans may even ask how it is that israel gets free health care courtesy of the amerikan tax-payer but amerikans don't.
israeli hubris is now at level that can only end with a massive fall.
The iraeli government corruption and incompetence will bring the whole unstable edifice crashing down.
Tim, Bomber, the above post by Anti-Zionist is worthy of the front page.
ReplyDeleteThe level of anti-semetism on this blog is incredible. One has to remember, of course, that many Arabs sided with Hitler in his attempts to exterminate the Jews - and such rhetoric continues to this day.
ReplyDeleteSurrounded by counties who want to see it destroyed, Israel has adopted an aggressive pose - why - because it wants to survive.
Now the notion from the anti-semites on this blog seems to be that Israel deliberately targets innocents. Well, according to the AP
"Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
-- Associated Press, Dec. 27"
Hamas, when it fired its 6000 rockets, i bet they didn't sound such a warning. Indeed as a military organisation, Hamas positions itself amongst the civilian population. And, lets be very frank about this - it does so deliberately - if a few of the masses die then thats good, the world will condemn the Israelis and Hamas will gain political capital for it.
How many Israelis died from rocket attacks in 2008 Scott?
ReplyDeleteBrewer - i know what you are trying to get it, but that doesnt justify rocket attacks. DO you think Hamas just thought that Israel would allow the attacks to continue without consequence?
ReplyDeleteCome on Scott. Is it more than the number of Palestinian children killed in an average week, month or year?
ReplyDeleteI guess is what they call 'keep the brain active during the holiday break.'
ReplyDeleteSad.
Areana J
Only a handful. Whats your point?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSdm should be put in the furnace with the Jews for his crimes against humanity. You are a Nazi for calling Palestinians anti-semites.
ReplyDeleteSuicide Bombing for Peace
ReplyDeleteThe point Scott is that you don't know.
ReplyDeleteBy what possible morality can you defend the killing of 400 people when you don't even know anything about the crime that they are accused of?
That is what makes you a pathetic follower of whatever propaganda suits your uninformed prejudices.
Just as you repeated the lies about Iran's nukes, here you are not just drinking the kool aid, you're trying to get others to swallow it.
This from the person who refused to condemn 9/11, instead calling it a cry for help
ReplyDeleteWhat I want is middle east peace - where the Palestinians have a state, as to the Israelis.
You want the destruction of Israel. That is your game - yet you have the cheek to get all moralistic on me.
"By what possible morality can you defend the killing of 400 people when you don't even know anything about the crime that they are accused of?"
Did the Hamas government do everything they could to protect them. Or are they just a pawn in the game?
The killing of innocents is abhorrent, on both sides.
" Sdm should be put in the furnace with the Jews for his crimes against humanity. You are a Nazi for calling Palestinians anti-semites."
I wonder if the blog administrators will delete that.....i doubt it. Anon - grow a sack you coward. Put a name to your comment, go on, I dare you..
While I'm at it, this:
ReplyDelete"many Arabs sided with Hitler in his attempts to exterminate the Jews"
is just so much filth. You have no evidence whatsoever except that the Mufti sought German support in his battle to prevent the theft of his country - a perfectly natural act.
Yitzhak Shamir on the other hand, offered his Irgun forces to fight on Germany's side and requested Hitler's help in setting up a National Socialist Totalitarian State in Palestine.
"Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. In 1941, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany."
Avraham Stern and his followers announced that
"The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:
1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,
3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.
Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany's side."
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
There is an article about this document on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
More bullshit.
ReplyDelete"This from the person who refused to condemn 9/11, instead calling it a cry for help"
Link to where I refused to condemn 911.
What I said was that the event could be viewed by psychobabblers as a cry for help.
What I want is middle east peace - where the Palestinians have a state, as to the Israelis.
So you favour States based on religion and race?
You want the destruction of Israel.
I favour a unitary State with equal rights for all.
Did the Hamas government do everything they could to protect them. Or are they just a pawn in the game?
Hamas are the pawn in Israel's game.
"I wonder if the blog administrators will delete that"
Don't go off half cocked. I think the comment was meant to be a rather sick ironical joke in your favour.
Haj Amin al Husseini
ReplyDeleteThe Arab population from 1920-1930 generally reaped the benefits of Jewish immigration, and did not oppose the establishment Jewish National Home.
Yet there was one man who attempted to breathe life into a national movement: this was the Mufti, Haj Amin al Husseini. The Mufti knew that nationalist slogans alone would not succeed in uniting the masses against Zionism. He therefore turned the struggle into a religious conflict. He addressed the masses clearly, calling for a holy war. His battle cry was simple and comprehensive: "Down with the Infidels!" From the time Herbert Samuel appointed him to the position of Mufti, Haj Amin worked vigorously to raise Jerusalem's status as an Islamic holy center. He renovated the mosques on the Temple Mount, while conducting an unceasing campaign regarding the imminent Jewish "threat" to Moslem holy sites.[1]
Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources. Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.
Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel. Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.
After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat.
After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.
Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini was later the notorious Nazi who mixed Nazi propaganda and Islam. He was wanted for war crimes in Bosnia by Yugoslavia. His mix of militant propagandizing Islam was an inspriation for both Yasser Arafat and Saddam Husein: He was also a close relative of Yasser Arafat and grandfather of the current Temple Mount Mufti. "Arafat's actual name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. He shortened it to obscure his kinship with the notorious Nazi and ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini." Howard M. Sachar, A HISTORY OF ISRAEL (New York: Knopf, 1976). The Bet Agron International Center in Jerusalem interviewed Arafat's brother and sister, who described the Mufti as a cousin (family member) with tremendous influence on young Yassir after the Mufti returned from Berlin to Cairo. Yasser Arafat himself keeps his exact lineage and birthplace secret. Saddam Hussein was raised in the house of his uncle Khayrallah Tulfah, who was a leader in the Mufti's pro-Nazi coup in Iraq in May 1941.
[1] THE PILLAR OF FIRE, Shikmona Publishing Company ltd, p 1.61
ANOTHER TACK: Fiendish hypocrisy II
Jerusalem Post, by Sarah Honig
(April 5) Had Holocaust deniers from the world over been allowed to converge on Beirut earlier this week, they would have devastatingly disfigured the face-lifted Arab image. This is why they were kept out.
Nevertheless, fiendishly hypocritical Arab criteria allow Holocaust justification and Holocaust denial to thrive simultaneously. Yasser Arafat's sidekick, Knesset member Ahmed Tibi, revived the old canard that the real Holocaust victims were Arabs, whom a guilt-ridden West saddled with the unwanted Jewish state. In other words, the Arabs paid Europe's penalty despite their absolute innocence.
Is this why the Arab world harbored so many Nazi war criminals, including the infamous Alois Brunner? Or does Arab hostility predate WWII? And is there a link between Arab aspirations then and now? There may be powerful motives for obscuring that link. Ignorance facilitates the cover-up of still- unaltered propensities and purposes. Hence the Arabs' Holocaust record remains ever-relevant.
Were they indeed blameless bystanders?
Right after the 1942 Allied victory in El Alamein, Jerusalem's grand mufti, Haj Amin al-Husseini, took to the airwaves and broadcast in Arabic from Berlin. At that time he already was "prime minister" of a pan-Arab government formed in the German capital. His foreign minister was exiled Iraqi leader Rashid Ali al-Kilani and his war minister, Fawsi al-Kaukji.
Husseini called on his numerous disciples throughout the Middle East not to lose heart though their greatest hope - Rommel's conquest of Eretz Yisrael - was foiled. The mufti planned a triumphant return with the conquering Axis forces, and the construction of a death camp outside Nablus to implement the final solution of the Jewish problem in this region.
Despair after the Desert Rat's rout was immense, but Husseini wouldn' t give up. "Arise, o sons of Arabia," he exhorted his avid pro-Nazi followers. "Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor."
In late 1944, Husseini still sponsored a last-ditch effort to trigger another Arab rebellion.His agents, a mixed German-Arab commando crew, parachuted here. Their first mission was poisoning Tel Aviv's wells.
Husseini arrived in Berlin three years earlier, after escaping the British. There he became Hitler's personal guest. The fuehrer granted him a prolonged personal audience, and the two reached a perfect meeting of the minds on how to solve the Jewish problem. Husseini was put up in a large house on Berlin's Klopstock Street, to which the SS referred as "the Jewish Institute."
With good reason. Until 1939 it was a Zionist-oriented Hebrew school. There must have been particular perverse pleasure in lodging the mufti precisely there. He thereafter referred to his new residence as "The Research Institute on the Jewish Problem in the Moslem World."
The Germans regarded Husseini as worth investing in. Various Nazi establishments competed for his affections. The Foreign Ministry paid him the then monthly equivalent of over $10,000, when the dollar was almighty. This sum was more than matched by the SS from its sonderfund resources, which consisted of assets robbed from Jews, often before their execution.
Again, the perverse pleasure must have been considerable.
Husseini's first Third Reich port of call was SS chief Heinrich Himmler's headquarters. Himmler took Husseini under his personal wing. He not only organized tours for him to Auschwitz, but sponsored and financed his Moslem clerical academy in Dresden. The graduates were to spearhead Nazi rule in Moslem lands.
Husseini was in charge of pro-German and antisemitic propaganda for Arabs and Moslems everywhere. He recruited Bosnians and other Moslem volunteers, who were to cleanse newly-occupied areas of "hostile elements," concentrate Jews for transport, and operate the projected death machine in Palestine - in the manner Ukrainians did the dirty work in Eastern Europe.
The SS interest in the mufti preceded the war. It financed his uprising here between 1936-39. In 1937, Adolf Eichmann visited this country to reconnoiter the Zionist endeavor and meet the mufti, but the British allowed him only a 48-hour stay. Eventually Himmler introduced Husseini to Eichmann. Thereafter the mufti became a frequent caller at Eichmann's office. The two got along famously. They shared the goal of exterminating all Middle Eastern Jews.
This is backed by ample documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials.
At the end of 1942, Eichmann ordered 10,000 Jewish children sent from Poland to Theresienstadt. The Red Cross offered to trade German civilians for them.Husseini got wind of the scheme and protested vehemently to Himmler, warning him that the little Jews would soon become big Jews.
The exchange was cancelled.
Husseini is moreover "credited" with having personally foiled any compromise on the fate of Hungarian Jewry at the very end of the war.
In his memoirs he wrote: "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.' "
After the war, Husseini was declared a wanted war criminal. He fled to France, and from there reached safety in Egypt, joining a host of nefarious Nazis who continued maintaining a network of espionage, sabotage, and virulent antisemitism from Arab havens.
The mufti, who was deeply mourned by the masses when he died in 1974, still remains revered. Arafat and Faissal Husseini are both his blood kin. Neither repudiated him nor renounced his teachings.
A few weeks ago, an official PA communique, reprinted in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, accused Israelis of "murdering tots and elderly Arabs mercilessly. Jews tear open the bellies of pregnant women and rip out the fetuses, claiming this is the commandment of the God of Israel, which he ordered the People of Israel to fulfill."
The logical remedy must be the mufti's recipe for saving Arab honor and pleasing Allah.
The spirit of the man from Klopstock Street still hovers over Gaza. That's why baby Shalhevet was murdered. [2]
[2] The Jerusalem Post
WTF is this?
ReplyDeleteThe movie Exodus is more authoritative than this garbage.
Get a grip Scott, or at least some historical documents. I don't do Israeli novels.
"We can use Israel or any Western mainstream source to support the criticism that Israel is receiving."
ReplyDeleteFrom our very own Fran O'Sullivan:
"John Key's new National Government has carefully - but quietly - dispatched with its predecessor's past record of loudly beating up on Israel whenever it retaliates against the tiny Middle East country's naked aggressors.
But the Key Government runs the risk that unless it steps up its advocacy for an immediate and urgent ceasefire for humanitarian reasons, it will be seen to have abdicated New Zealand's moral leadership in international affairs. On the international issue du jour - Israel's military assault against the Hamas leaders' Gaza stronghold - Foreign Minister Murray McCully has been notably restrained.
...
But the situation is becoming more complex as the local temperature is raised.
NZ peace groups are now calling for a boycott against Israel and the Palestinian Human Rights campaign has sent an open letter to Key and McCully calling on them to "declare your positions of principle regarding Israel's military occupation of Palestinian land"."
If I had a cent for every time Husseini was raised by anti-semitic like you Scott....
ReplyDeleteI don't have time to read your entire post so I won't comment on its accuracy, but I will say this.
Things have moved on. Many Jewish groups were allied with the Nazis to promote migration to Palestine. So perhaps you should move on from Husseini too.
I maintain that when Israel drops its demand for exclusive Jewish monopoly of land and resources, peace will ensue.
Note Brewer considers me and the Jews being put in the furnace to be humorous. He also dismisses any source he disagrees with as garbage.....
ReplyDeleteAnti-Flag's ravings, which have in the past included defamation, are well known to long time readers of this blog. Suffice it to say that she has little regard for the truth, and has a stated agenda of being anti-jewish.
How is it Genocide? Do you support the rocket being fired? Do you think Israel should just take it? Do you think Hamas knew what Israel would do and so deliberately provoked them for political ends?
"Do you support the rocket being fired? Do you think Israel should just take it?"
ReplyDeleteTake what Scott?
How many killed by rockets?
Scott, I once thought you were simply a bit young and naive but I am beginning to detect a malicious streak.
ReplyDeleteSome dickhead supporter of yours, probably that idiot who keeps slinging Nazi slurs at me,
tries to be funny by posting:
"Sdm should be put in the furnace with the Jews for his crimes against humanity. You are a Nazi for calling Palestinians anti-semites."
I point this out that it was a sick attempt at humour and I get this from you:
"Note Brewer considers me and the Jews being put in the furnace to be humorous"
As to sources, it is easy to dismiss the above piece of garbage. It is simply not scholarship and reeks of disinformation. One example should suffice:
"In 1937, Adolf Eichmann visited this country to reconnoiter the Zionist endeavor and meet the mufti,"
Eichmann traveled to Palestine to meet with Feivel Polkes, the Hagganah intelligence chief. There was no attempt to contact the Mufti.
As a result of these and other meetings, 40 farm training camps for Jews were established in Germany. One was still operating in 1944.
Now, you will probably think I am making this up so here is a link proving the existence of at least one in 1941:
http://www1.yadvashem.org/this_month/september/this_month_5.html
An indication of how much interest I take in Zionist/Nazi collaboration is in the fact that I didn't keep a link to the larger story. I shall endeavour to track it down.
"Hows life in Iran or Saudi Arabia for a Christian or a Jew?"
I wasn't aware that Christians or Jews were the indigenous people of those lands but as a matter of interest, there are Jewish MPs in Iran and a community of Jews who just condemned this latest atrocity.
just to understand, is it because the arabs are brown that you all are so terrified of them (being called a racist)
ReplyDeleteLets move this conflict to germany. after ww2, the allies set up a state for the jews instead of israel. germany decides to take it back by force. there would be so m uch com by yaring on this site for the jews it wouldnt be funny yet because they are brown you all drop your nuts and side with them so hopefully your friends will think your a tolerant person. what a bunch of drop nuts
Not the reference I wanted but more confirmation of the story.
ReplyDelete"Of greater importance for Eichmann were the emissaries from Palestine, who would approach the Gestapo and the S.S. on their own initiative, without taking orders from either the German Zionists or the Jewish Agency for Palestine. They came in order to enlist help for the illegal immigration of Jews into British-ruled Palestine, and both the Gestapo and the S.S. were helpful. They negotiated with Eichmann in Vienna, and they reported that he was 'polite,' 'not the shouting type,' and that he even provided them with farms and facilities for setting up vocational training camps for prospective immigrants.
Hannah Arendt : Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil,
"How is life in iran or saudi arabia for a christian or jew"
ReplyDeleteWhat Israel is doing is obscene regardless how Jews are treated in other countries.
Screw Liverpool. Gerrard is OK but Lampard is better. GO CHELSEA!!!!
ReplyDelete"
What Israel is doing is obscene regardless how Jews are treated in other countries."
But tell me, do you approve of the behaviour of Iran and Saudi Arabia?
"Some dickhead supporter of yours, probably that idiot who keeps slinging Nazi slurs at me,
tries to be funny by posting:"
I have supporters?
I disapprove of the behaviour of just about every government on the planet - just some more than others.
ReplyDeleteWhat is it about Saudi or Iran that you want me to approve or disapprove of and what has it to do with your supporting the terror bombing of innocents for "crimes" you haven't yet bothered to investigate?
"But tell me, do you approve of the behaviour of Iran and Saudi Arabia?"
ReplyDeleteNo. It's not like you have to be a fan of Israel's opponents just because you disagree with what Israel is doing.
You have really proven yourself to be a monkey this time Scott. I am SOOOOO disappointed that you still think I want the destruction of Israel.
ReplyDeleteI have never said such a thing.
There is a difference between a State of all it's people and a State of a particular ethnicity or religion.
""Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy. It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, Zionist democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion. "
Google "isrrael demoracy" and click the first hit. Simple really.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story421.html
We are getting to the heart of the matter here. In every defence of Israel one will always hear "but they won't recognise Israel."
ReplyDeleteIt is not Israel they won't recognise, it is Israel "as a Jewish state!"
The reason for this is that recognition is loaded with conditions - no right of return or compensation for the nearly one million Palestinians terrorised out of their property and homes.
Now do you get it Scott?
Brewer, also we must consider what Israel are we to be recognising here? There are two: The state of Israel? Which is different from the land of Israel. Because the settlers don't live in the state of Israel, they live in the PROCESS of Irael (eretz israel). The Israeli government does not make that clear at all. In fact, Israel has no borders. What is Hamas and co recognising exactly?
ReplyDelete-Anti-Flag.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI have answered most of your question so please take the time to read and consider them with some thought.
"What is it you find offensive with a Jewish State?"
* That it is premised on a false majority that can only be maintained by oppression.
* That it is built on land where 400 Arab villages were destroyed and approx. 1 million Arabs expelled (or fled to use the Zionist lie).
* That it denies the 'right of return' for those refugess as enshrined in International Law.
* That it vioaltes International Law by building a Wall (security fence to use the Zionist lie) on land that should form the Palestinian State according to the two-state solution.
* That it continues to transfer its population into land that should form the Palestinian State according to the two-state solution. Yet it denies Palestinians from West Bank the right to settle in Israel.
* That is uses extreme disproportionate violence to ensure it's exsitence as a Jewish State.
"Do you also find Islamic States offensive"
If they are built on land from which people were expelled and fulfilled some of the items listed above, then yes I would.
"The idea of a Jewish homeland is something I support."
They can have a home land so long as they don't violate the rights of others. As soon as they do, they should be stopped. Just like ANYONE else.
"Do you think this should be opened up for one and all, and the country should become a pluralist democracy?"
Yes, I would love to be able to visit Saudi again, but that right is denied me and I find it frustrating. But at least they're not bombing people to maintain their kingdom. Personally I would like to see gradual steps to democracy in all Arab countries, but this has to be gradual. And the West has to ready to accept the consequences, unlike they did in West Bank and Gaza when Hamas was elected.
"Maybe you should speak of Islamic apartheid towards woman?"
Scott, using the faults of other countries to justifies Israel's actions is not a good arguement. Please try again.
"Israeli citizenship law does not differentiate between Israeli citizens based on ethnicity. "
Errr. Rubbish. Any Jew anywhere in the world can migrate to Israel, even if they have not direct connection to the land. Any Arab descendant of a 1948 refugees is denied entry to visit family.
But here's a few more for you:
Nationality (/Citizenship) Law (1952)
Confers automatic citizenship upon all who immigrate under the Law of Return. Non-Jews - including native-born Palestinians - must prove residency and pass other tests; citizenship is granted at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior.
Citizenship Law (2003)
The law stipulates that the interior minister does not have the authority to approve residence in Israel for a resident of Judea and Samaria (unless, of course, they are Jews - that is, settlers).
Secondly, racsim can be institutionlised and not documented in law.
Laws passed in August 2008
* An amendment to the civil-damages law which exempt the government from paying damages to innocent Palestinian bystanders hit by the Israeli military in the Occupied Palestinian Territories; this amendment is retroactive;
* The prohibition of mourning ceremonies for someone who has committed a terror act;
Yet Israeli Setller acts of terror are celebrated. Heard of the Goldstein massacre?
* The cancellation of citizenship or residency rights to members of the family of a terrorist;
All Arabs are related. Done.
* The Jewish National Fund can allocate state lands to Jews only;
Ouch! Blatant discrimination!
Quick Stat:
ReplyDeleteAt least 5526 Palestinians were killed, including 1010 children and 340 women during the second Intifada, the National and International Relations Department at the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) said in a report published Monday.
That's 1.8 Palestinians killed per day since year 2000.
Karlos - you have taken the time to post this and I will endeavor to respond.
ReplyDeleteMy problem is that you don't allow comparasion with other countries. If we are to put Israels behaviour into context, on policies such as immigration, we need to know how it compares with other countries.
For instance, while it is true that non-jews must apply for citizenship, in the way immigrants must apply to become nz citizens, the same can not be said of Arab nations. It is almost impossible for someone to become a citizen of Saudi Arabia, for instance.
Lets take a look at Jordan. It instituted its own "law of return" in 1954, according citizenship to all former residents of Palestine, except for Jews. So Israel has a policy that is moderate, in comparison, when it comes to citizenship.
In terms of the right of return, I agree these are issues which need to be hammered out in a peace deal between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I hope that such a deal can be soon, however I fear it won't be.
National and International Relations Department at the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) said in a report published Monday
ReplyDeleteAnother unbiased source Karlos.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI don't know about Jordan's Law of Return (I doubt there is one but do provide a link if you have one). But from your own text, it applies to former residents of Palestine. Compare this to israel's Law of Return which applies to people who have connection to the land except a questionable lineage from 2000 years ago.
I do allow comparisons with other countries but only when they serve a purpose. Saying that Saudi hangs people does not make it ok for others to do so. Yet that is what your arguments did. My neighbour is a murder so it must be ok for me to do the same.
At any rate, Israel presents itself as the beacon of democracy in the Middle East and has the support and respect of the Western world for this reason. So it is deceptive to compare it's laws to Arab countries.
The right of return is enshrined in international law. there is nothing to hammer out in a peace deal. That is Israeli terminology for delaying any peace until it achieves its political objectives. Surely that must be obvious to you.
The same applies to the Jewish-Only Settlements in West Bank and East Jerusalem. The highest judicial body in the world has already declared the illegal and demanded their removal. PERIOD. FULLSTOP. There is nothing to negotiate on this matter. Yet Israel's terminology is that the status of the Settlements and East Jeruslaem awaits “final status” negotiations. It is just buying time to complete it's objectives.