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Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Ban da Gangs and other myths


Caution against gang ban
Gangs will go underground if New Zealand introduces laws banning them, a Canterbury gang researcher says. Prime Minister Helen Clark and Corrections Minister Phil Goff said yesterday they would consider banning gangs if a new law doing this in South Australia proved successful.
Under the South Australian law:
A gang can be designated illegal on the advice of police.
Control orders can be made against individual members, making it illegal for them to associate with other members.
Police can ban gangs from public places or events through control orders.
Breaching the ban can lead to up to five years jail.
Canterbury University academic Jarrod Gilbert said implementing the law would be difficult, and "legal tussles" would arise over how the organised criminal groups would be defined. "The crux of the argument is whether these groups are made up of criminals, or whether or not they are criminal groups," he said. "So, within these groups, do individuals commit crimes or do they work together to commit crimes? "To prove that would be incredibly difficult. "It is very easy to enact law, but it doesn't necessarily mean the law will be workable. I think those people who are excited and think this is the easy sort of route to rid us of certain problems will most probably be disappointed.


Banning gangs will not work, you know it, I know it, the bloody Government knows it but with the election in less than 8 weeks Phil wants to beef up his raw meat cred and comes out swinging with this U-turn on banning gangs. If you want to target organized crime, we should use the old SFO to do it, not the ridiculous version the Police are cannibalizing the SFO for. Attacking the financial structures of gangs under the old SFO would cripple organized crime financially not allowing them to amass capital to grow, but the complex reasons alienated people bond to gangs for can’t be solved by throwing them all in prison. Let’s put aside the multiple human rights issues for a second, especially as most NZers on this issue snarl when you mention human rights and gangs in the same sentence, but can any of us imagine the horror we will have if every single gang member was put in prison? Just think about what those ramifications would bring, we struggle to keep control of gangs in our prison system at the moment, what if we suddenly flooded that over stretched prison service with an estimated 10 000 gang members? We can’t allow naked hatred of da gangs to warp public policy with consequences that are entirely predictable.

13 Comments:

At 16/9/08 8:26 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"but can any of us imagine the horror we will have if every single gang member was put in prison?"

Yes, your mate tim can but since law abiding citizens won't be incarcerated then such a move would be widely applauded.

PS bomber, how many gangs has the SFO taken down so far?

 
At 16/9/08 8:31 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Direct frontal attacks on gangs like this won't work. The more persecuted a group is, the more attractive it is, and the stronger it sticks together as internal disputes that could fracture it get ignored as the entire group fights the common enemy.

If we are to tackle gangs, we need to
- Strengthen families so there are less fatherless teenagers looking for father figures and a sense of belonging in gangs
- Cut off the gangs' source of income by confronting drug dealing.

Banning gangs, banning gang patches, requiring a firearms licence to buy an air rifle and other similar policies may get a few votes from the naive but won't do any good.
http://www.familyparty.org.nz/policy/gangs-and-prostitution

 
At 16/9/08 8:34 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Forget the SFO, you really think some skinny bean counting accounting nerd can take on the gangs? These guys deal in cash in the underground economy, there are no records as such for the SFO to investigate.

If NZ was really serious about getting rid of the gangs then the politicians would end the prohibition of cannabis, thus denying the gangs an important revenue stream (and biggest contact point with the community at large). P would be available to addicts from their doctors under controlled conditions, much like methadone. There goes another revenue stream.

Take away drugs and money and the gangs just become a bunch of petty criminals.

But here's the other big thing that needs to be done - educate our young men better, teach them that, despite media encouragement (TV/Film/Music/Games), being violent and a gang member isn't something to aspire to. Provide hope, community pride and decent career prospects in the poorer parts of our towns and watch the gangs disappear.

 
At 16/9/08 8:39 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Close Mr Dennis, but you point has one fatal flaw....

You say The more persecuted a group is, the more attractive it is then you say by confronting drug dealing. and link to a Family Party page that states The key - target drug dealing: DRUG DEALING needs to be targeted at street level

So explain how persecuting and criminalising drug users (well over 500,000 in NZ) will help anything??

Also...

- Strengthen families so there are less fatherless teenagers looking for father figures and a sense of belonging in gangs

You are aware that a large proportion of gang recruits are FAMILY MEMBERS of existing gang members? Fathers and sons, uncles etc?

 
At 16/9/08 2:46 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

We need officers like Clint Rickards to go in undercover and take them down not a bunch a desk jockeys who talk loud and do nothing like bomber.

 
At 16/9/08 3:56 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey yeah, Clint would be well at home amongst that type wouldn't he? Loving it.

NS

 
At 16/9/08 5:25 pm, Blogger Chris said...

Anon 8:34, gangs can be targeted by the SFO and IRD working together.

The IRD have the power to determine what kind of tax you should be paying by auditing your lifestyle. Because gangs deal in cash they don't pay tax, so an IRD audit lands them with a massive tax bill - this is the most effective way to counteract dodgy organisations with fuzzy edges, prosecute individuals/organisations that don't pay their tax.

The IRD does accept tax payments regardless of the origins of the money, so if gangs were smart they'd start declaring their income.

 
At 17/9/08 8:01 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 8:34, gangs can be targeted by the SFO and IRD working together.

The IRD have the power to determine what kind of tax you should be paying by auditing your lifestyle. Because gangs deal in cash they don't pay tax, so an IRD audit lands them with a massive tax bill - this is the most effective way to counteract dodgy organisations with fuzzy edges, prosecute individuals/organisations that don't pay their tax.


No boss that Commodore isn't mine my cousin loaned it to me.

I run a handyman business but don't keep records as I can't read or write.

I bought the house after my auntie died, she had a her life savings in tin under the bed which she left to me.

I won the Harley in a game of pool down the pub.

 
At 17/9/08 8:20 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gang need to get more violent eye for head and arm for 2 legs.. but this kind of talk makes the phase "BORING" come to mind

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At 17/9/08 8:33 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gang need to get more violent eye for head and arm for 2 legs.. but this kind of talk makes the phase "BORING" come to mind

????

Thanks little man, now run along and play.

 
At 17/9/08 8:53 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

lol a new anon, how nice..
still boring, if your insight into fixing the problem is
BAN DA GANGS lol,

Seriously gangs shouldn't take that shit, they're use to Jail and violence. Why not send the message to back off, killing a judge or two, maybe an MP. we are becoming like the US why not step up the process.

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At 17/9/08 12:51 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

still boring, if your insight into fixing the problem is
BAN DA GANGS lol,


Did you even read the posts above?

Seriously gangs shouldn't take that shit, they're use to Jail and violence. Why not send the message to back off, killing a judge or two, maybe an MP. we are becoming like the US why not step up the process.

You're a nice fellow, advocating killing judges and MPs. Seriously lay off da crack.

 
At 18/9/08 12:32 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You're a nice fellow, advocating killing judges and MPs. Seriously lay off da crack.

LOL shit you must be new and from the states, I think you mean P, or pure, Meth...
You're a nice fellow, advocating killing judges and MPs. Why thank you.

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